New recruit pregnant before job starting

[FlimFlamJimJams]

I've started a new business, it'll open to the public around April time.
It's a very small, community focused business with only 4 staff members initially.
I recruited all the staff within the last few weeks and are finalising contracts. Everyone has formal job offers, no one yet has a job contract.

The roles require training on the job resulting in a nationally recognised qualification, probably achieved within 12 months or so. The business is paying for this.

I have had meetings with everyone individually this week to go through bits and bobs, start dates etc - and at the end of a meeting with one lady yesterday, she tells me that she's 12 weeks pregnant and anticipates starting her Maternity leave around mid-July. She said she found out at 5 weeks - so she'd have known she was pregnant at interview.

I'm now stuck in a difficult position - the business is already going to struggle financially for the first few years (it's not quite a non-profit, but it's close) and I'm now facing having to extend someone's training at least 6 months past everyone else's as well as find temporary cover, which is expensive. She may well choose not to return after her maternity. I turned down other applicants who applied after her job offer was made.

I guess there isn't a AIBU, because I'm not going to do anything, but I feel really deceived and a bit stressed about the whole thing.
I know everyone is entitled to get pregnant etc. But I wasn't anticipating someone going on ML before they'd even qualified, or finished their probation.

@Abigail12345654321

By steamrollered, do you mean you can’t counter-argue successfully McOrange? People have been absolutely horrible to the Op on this thread and treated her as if she is some sort of evil capitalist pig oppressing the women workers when she is nothing of the sort. If we don’t defend women who are out there creating businesses and employment, and attempting to do so in a fair and even handed way, what is the point of forums like mumsnet?

Well said. Why should any one poster, 'give it a rest' because some people don't like what they're saying? How rude. How dare someone tell you to shut up? Who do they think they are?! That would make me speak up even more tbh, if I was told to shut the fuck up. Keep going abigail, I am enjoying your posts. I also agree with you, AND the others who say it absolutely stinks, and should not be allowed. (A woman starting a new job and not telling the employer she is pregnant.)

She shows herself to be untrustworthy, and if I took her on and discovered she was pregnant a few weeks later, I would do my level best to make sure she was got rid of. I would not want such a deceitful liar working for me, (and she IS a liar. She is lying by omission.)

I see no hatred of women here. Is debate not possible without name calling?

Not on MN it isn't - or at least not often

And neither do I see any "hatred", just a sharing of experiences and a discussion about the issues. Trouble is, as with other topics, "hatred" is often deemed to mean some fact that the poster would prefer to go unmentioned

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I see no hatred of women here. Is debate not possible without name calling?

Not on MN it isn't - or at least not often

And neither do I see any "hatred", just a sharing of experiences and a discussion about the issues. Trouble is, as with other topics, "hatred" is often deemed to mean some fact that the poster would prefer to go unmentioned

Exactly. 'Hatred' and 'hateful comments' = 'things I don't like to hear,' and 'things that I disagree with.'

It's not HATRED when someone posts comments that you don't agree with!

I don't think it's misogynistic to expect a worker to do the job they were hired for. To take a job when you know you can't fulfil the terms is morally wrong. Womens protected maternity rights weren't put in place so that employees could go this - they were to protect women who are perfectly capable of doing their jobs from being sacked solely because they were pregnant!
Being absent through unforeseen illness is different to being pregnant and knowing from the get go that you cannot complete training, and that you are leaving the employer without the necessary staff.
People who do this aren't helping other women - it just makes employers reluctant to hire younger women.

@Hellsbells35

She hasn’t deceived you. She’s entitled to a job. You really can’t complain. I would try and change your mindset and grow as a person

Entitled to a job? Yes. Entitled to this job? Maybe not.

@Mollymoostoo

Pregnancy and maternity are protected characteristics by law so tread carefully. You hired her as she was right for the job, being pregnant is not a reason to retract an offer and the law will be on her side.

The OP isn't based in the UK so this potential employee may not have the same protections as one in the UK.

The OP also hired her based on the timeframe required to complete the training, which the potential employee may not be able to adhere to.

So, OP what are you planning on doing? Have you had a conversation with this potential employee at this point?

@Aderyn21

I don't think it's misogynistic to expect a worker to do the job they were hired for. To take a job when you know you can't fulfil the terms is morally wrong. Womens protected maternity rights weren't put in place so that employees could go this - they were to protect women who are perfectly capable of doing their jobs from being sacked solely because they were pregnant! Being absent through unforeseen illness is different to being pregnant and knowing from the get go that you cannot complete training, and that you are leaving the employer without the necessary staff. People who do this aren't helping other women - it just makes employers reluctant to hire younger women.

Agree with this. ^

Maternity rights for pregnant women are there for a reason, and a good reason, as some employers do discriminate again pregnant women/women with children.

I like what a poster said earlier in the thread... 'Maternity rights are a SHIELD. But some women use this shield as a weapon.'

The OP owes this woman nothing. She should not give her the job IMO.

@Aderyn21

I don't think it's misogynistic to expect a worker to do the job they were hired for. To take a job when you know you can't fulfil the terms is morally wrong. Womens protected maternity rights weren't put in place so that employees could go this - they were to protect women who are perfectly capable of doing their jobs from being sacked solely because they were pregnant! Being absent through unforeseen illness is different to being pregnant and knowing from the get go that you cannot complete training, and that you are leaving the employer without the necessary staff. People who do this aren't helping other women - it just makes employers reluctant to hire younger women.

Amen to this.

So annoying! YANBU and good luck with your new business

@MabelsApron @SkyBlueBlues @Puzzledandpissedoff

Thank you!

And don’t worry, being told to STFU had never had the effect of shutting me the FU in the past and I doubt it will begin to do so at this stage of my life!

Pregnancy can bring out the worst in some people. I’ve always put it down to underlying feelings of vulnerability and insecurity. But I agree when people behave badly it damages the prospects of all women and unless we speak up and suggest alternative perspectives outside the workplace, so people moderate their sense of entitlement and their expectations, then sooner or later the workplace will become more hostile and not less hostile toward women.

And I applaud the Op for starting a business. If we all waited until we had ‘enough’ money to get going, we would never get going. Women owned businesses are good for women.

Another great post @Abigail12345654321 ^ You're right. When women behave like this, and take advantage of a system set up to protect pregnant women, it makes it bad for other women.

I agree with Abigail, lying by omission may make you deceitful and untrustworthy. Why hire that person?

Pregnancy laws are here to protect all women, but if some go in knowing you are pregnant, not declaring it, can't do the training, may not return, that is actually an abuse of the pregnancy benefits we are all given, so you are damaging it for other women.

Women owned businesses are good for women.

Are they?

@Pugroll

Women owned businesses are good for women.

Are they?

Apparently so, yes!

@Oblomov22

I agree with Abigail, lying by omission may make you deceitful and untrustworthy. Why hire that person?

Pregnancy laws are here to protect all women, but if some go in knowing you are pregnant, not declaring it, can't do the training, may not return, that is actually an abuse of the pregnancy benefits we are all given, so you are damaging it for other women.

Not my quote - but I would question whether this candidate has any common sense in applying, if they can’t complete the training.

@Pugroll

Women owned businesses are good for women.

Are they?

Not if the 'women' on this thread are anything anything to go by!

@Viviennemary

Yes indeed big drip feed. Since you are not even in the UK and would not even be acting illegally if you withdraw the offer. What a time waster.

I agree what a waste of everyone’s time!

@UnshakenNeedsStirring

Absolutely shitty of her to do this. She shouldve informed you before taking the offer. She just wants someone to pay for her maternity unfortunately you got stitched up OP

This.

This is why I would only employ older women or men

Are you hoping to scale up the business. Perhaps discuss her thoughts on returning back to the role after giving birth. How long will she take off, returning F/T or P/T etc.
Would there be an opportunity for an additional P/T role that would mean an additional member of staff jow but then leads to cover Mat leave and then job share or P/T depending on how she plans to return to work.
I fully understand the need to enable, pregnancy, mat leave in the work place but it does leave small businesses with a predicament to cover costs and posts.

@McOrange

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a thread be steam rollered by one poster as much as *@Abigail12345654321* on this one. You’ve made your opinion known, isn’t it time to give it a rest?

Actually agree, you've got a lot to say for yourself *@Abigail12345654321* on this topic and the only points that you're making clear are that:

-The right of pregnant women to not face discrimination is conditional.
-Small businesses should be exempt from complying from equality legislation.
-Small businesses should be lauded and their growth facilitated by allowing them to discriminate.
-Pregnant women's primary concern should be how their condition affects the place they work for.

@saleorbouy

Are you hoping to scale up the business. Perhaps discuss her thoughts on returning back to the role after giving birth. How long will she take off, returning F/T or P/T etc. Would there be an opportunity for an additional P/T role that would mean an additional member of staff jow but then leads to cover Mat leave and then job share or P/T depending on how she plans to return to work. I fully understand the need to enable, pregnancy, mat leave in the work place but it does leave small businesses with a predicament to cover costs and posts.

It’s generally recommended that you not ask pregnant women about their plans for after the baby is born as a) things might change anyway so it’s all quite meaningless and b) it might make them feel stressed and pressured, risking accusations of you harming them or the baby if they miscarry subsequently

@BlueBellsArePretty

I do have lots to say for myself. Isn’t it wonderful that free speech is permitted? Though maybe read my posts more carefully as you seem to have been rather selective in your reading.

I believe people conflate maternity rights with family friendly policies. The former are a legal entitlement and I have not said that women should not be employed while pregnant and I haven’t even said they shouldn’t conceal it. I have said they should use some common sense in choosing where to apply because small startups cannot sustain much additional financial burden in the early years; I would say the same to the chronically ill or anyone who prefers a 9-5 ethos because young startups do need dynamic people willing to go the extra mile in the hopes they will benefit later if the company flies. I would like small companies to be exempt from many anti discrimination requirements for a limited time - although it’s difficult to know how to implemented that without companies manipulating the system to their advantage and thus discriminating for longer than should be permitted. With large established and public sector firms I would want to see much family friendlier policies than most have now so they attract the young mums and dads - if they look after them through the small child years they may buy loyalty for many years and they can afford the initial outlay. I’d like to see big firms funding private schools and paying the fees for their staff, and funding those facilities to run after school care and early morning clubs to take the pressure off parents with drop off and pick up times. Parents make themselves ill stressing about how to juggle childcare. Many have no local family support. It’s not good for employers if staff are not coping.

And all women should use every available opportunity to advance these issues in their workplaces, particularly senior women. And parents should apply some common sense in deciding where to work and when to make complaints - if a large company or public sector organisation discriminates, by all means get onto ACAS and pursue compensation. But doing the same with a small startup is not cricket.

You've got a lot to say for yourself?

Really? Is this where we are? Being chastised like little girls in 1950?

So depressing

@MeredithGreyishblue

You've got a lot to say for yourself?

Really? Is this where we are? Being chastised like little girls in 1950?

So depressing

Tragic isn’t it?

These are the mothers of the next generation of young women. And thus women do it to themselves. Over and over from one generation to the next. With no insight or self awareness.

At least I know when I’m choosing to be overbearing on a thread! Hahaha!!!