New recruit pregnant before job starting

[FlimFlamJimJams]

I've started a new business, it'll open to the public around April time.
It's a very small, community focused business with only 4 staff members initially.
I recruited all the staff within the last few weeks and are finalising contracts. Everyone has formal job offers, no one yet has a job contract.

The roles require training on the job resulting in a nationally recognised qualification, probably achieved within 12 months or so. The business is paying for this.

I have had meetings with everyone individually this week to go through bits and bobs, start dates etc - and at the end of a meeting with one lady yesterday, she tells me that she's 12 weeks pregnant and anticipates starting her Maternity leave around mid-July. She said she found out at 5 weeks - so she'd have known she was pregnant at interview.

I'm now stuck in a difficult position - the business is already going to struggle financially for the first few years (it's not quite a non-profit, but it's close) and I'm now facing having to extend someone's training at least 6 months past everyone else's as well as find temporary cover, which is expensive. She may well choose not to return after her maternity. I turned down other applicants who applied after her job offer was made.

I guess there isn't a AIBU, because I'm not going to do anything, but I feel really deceived and a bit stressed about the whole thing.
I know everyone is entitled to get pregnant etc. But I wasn't anticipating someone going on ML before they'd even qualified, or finished their probation.

I would be practical and as no contracts have been signed I'd withdraw the offer and look for a new candidate who can fulfil the role and training as required.

What you have here is a hobby, not a business. The best suggestion is to move it to your garage and you be the only volunteer. Do not consult a lawyer, or attend a business seminar to educate on the trials of starting a business and how to do it legally. Do not consult an accountant to understand how much money it will take or the insurance needed to protect yourself and your assets. Have you considered permits, regulations and laws concerning businesses open to the public and the employees.

@Abigail12345654321

Oh and no I don’t think anyone on any type of paid leave should accumulate additional paid annual leave while off. It should be pro rated as it is for part time staff and payable only related to hours physically worked. But that’s a whole other thread!

God forbid a cancer patient might want a week in the sun after 6 months of gruelling treatment, eh?

@RenoSusan

What you have here is a hobby, not a business. The best suggestion is to move it to your garage and you be the only volunteer. Do not consult a lawyer, or attend a business seminar to educate on the trials of starting a business and how to do it legally. Do not consult an accountant to understand how much money it will take or the insurance needed to protect yourself and your assets. Have you considered permits, regulations and laws concerning businesses open to the public and the employees.

Oh do RTFT.

@girlmom21

Yes that’s right. They have been protected with six months full salary. Which is excellent. They can absolutely then book two weeks leave - and they will have almost a week more to take before the end of the year.

What isn’t needed is a week of holiday per month for the following six months.

You can legally sack anyone within the first 2 years of working for you with no reason

[quote Abigail12345654321]@girlmom21

Yes that’s right. They have been protected with six months full salary. Which is excellent. They can absolutely then book two weeks leave - and they will have almost a week more to take before the end of the year.

What isn’t needed is a week of holiday per month for the following six months.[/quote]
I disagree. I think someone in that situation deserves to be allowed to live a little bit when they've gone toe to toe with death.

[quote Freecuthbert]@Abigail12345654321

So if you have been or ever would be pregnant, have you/will you turn down your annual leave? Same if you ever get long term sick god forbid? Even if you have to be off for covid or for self isolation, I presume you'll be a martyr and work out how much annual leave you accrued and refuse to take it? I mean it does no-one any good according to you, right 🤷

Fwiw, I'm currently on annual leave after maternity leave, in lieu of sick leave as I have been so unwell, having surgeries etc. If I didn't take my annual leave and instead went straight onto sick leave, I wouldn't be entitled to SSP or anything. My income would be 0. The financial strain is so much more to me as an individual than to my employer, for them it is like a drop in the ocean. If a company can't afford these things, they aren't viable.[/quote]
Sorry to hear you have been unwell. That explains your position well. Annual leave has created an extra paid buffer for you, so of course you will be in favour. But if you had an uncomplicated maternity leave, and returned mid year, you would be returning with 5.6 weeks accumulated leave and another 2.8 to take by the end of leave year. That’s nearly 8 weeks of leave to take in six months. Having someone return and then take more than a week off every single month for six months isn’t conducive to getting back into the swing of work. In effect those returning full time from mat leave are usually effectively part time with annual leave accumulation and since most return part time, in reality they are barely there for a long, long time. Which hampers progression and promotion. I personally would prefer additional discretionary funds to be available to help staff through crises, rather than everyone having so much accumulated leave.

@Daffodil123456

You can legally sack anyone within the first 2 years of working for you with no reason

That's not quite true.

In fact, not at all true!

@Daffodil123456

You can legally sack anyone within the first 2 years of working for you with no reason

Not if it's classified as unfair dismissal - ie if you're sacking someone who's been off on maternity leave. And the OP isn't in the UK and knows she can withdraw the offer and has chosen not to do so.

@girlmom21

But the vast majority of people who take extended sick leave have not gone toe to toe with death.

@girlmom21
And every person I know who actually has - and I’m quite old - either retires or reduces their hours formally. Serious illness tends to make you consider your priorities.

Being on holiday for a week every month simply disrupts you work and reduces your chances of promotion. There is a reason women tend not to progress well after having a baby and those six months after mat leave tend to create a perception that they aren’t committed when in fact they are just taking the absurd amount of accumulated leave. The sensible ones take it in a block before returning and they tend to do better.

@Abigail12345654321 to be fair that's what I did with mine - took it in a block to extend maternity leave slightly. I was able to sell some days back too which was good as I had almost 2 years worth because of the way mat leave had fallen.

I do agree it's pretty poor to use sporadic holiday for an extra 6 months but I don't agree about not accruing it if you're off sick.

What is the training? How many hours per week or is it full time or on the job? Maybe broach the possibility she continues the training whilst on mat leave as a KIP day if not full time and doesn't have to be on job training? It would show commitment from both sides.

If she is really interested and keen to work for you she maybe willing, whilst on Mat Leave from my FT job I continued with my PT degree ( degree that I was paying for as not relevant to my job I was in then so had a vested interest to still attend uni a day a week and do assignments in the evenings and at weekend)

I agree with you it's very frustrating as the impact on small businesses especially those just starting out is horrendous and don't blame you for wanting to vent, but I also agree with OP we shouldn't be penalised for being pregnant, just because we are the only ones who can incubate our precious cargo, and wanting a career and we are too often even in the UK, they may not be able to not offer us work or make us redundant but they can certainly make it a crap environment or make you jump through hoops and reapply for your position to be offered one that is within your capability but not one you would ever apply for ( yep speaking from experience) to be told your lucky to have a job !

@girlmom21

I’ve learned over the years that it’s a good predictor of future performance. Extending as a block is a good sign. Taking it slowly usually means they are not coping. At all.

With long term sick leave doctors usually sign people off until fully ready to return. So they should be rested and recovered before coming back. The accumulated leave tends to be used to avoid going to half salary after six months so in effect they are taking 7 or 7.5 months paid sick leave - again an indicator not really ready to come back and usually happens with stress and depression, not cancer or surgery. But if ready to come back and actually recovered, they then have more than a week of leave per month for six months so they don’t get back into a normal routine and, again, the perception develops that they are ‘part timers’ and not committed.

It’s damaging.

I’d rather people get longer paid mat leave or longer fully paid sick leave than using accumulated annual leave as some sort of buffer. It’s not helpful.

I also think that if on mat leave and mat leave is ending and you are sick at that point, you should be eligible for your six months fully paid sick leave at that point. @Freecuthbert should not be using annual leave so she gets paid - she should be paid her sickness entitlement now her mat leave has ended.

Accumulated annual leave is hiding a significant issue with a minority of staff. The system would be better if there were no accumulated leave but better provision for those who genuinely need more paid time off due to overlap of mat leave and sickness etc

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a thread be steam rollered by one poster as much as @Abigail12345654321 on this one. You’ve made your opinion known, isn’t it time to give it a rest?

@Daffodil123456

You can legally sack anyone within the first 2 years of working for you with no reason

No you can't. There is no qualifying period for discrimination claims.

"You can legally sack anyone within the first 2 years of working for you with no reason

No you can't. There is no qualifying period for discrimination claims."

Op has already said that she can - she isn't in the UK. RTFT maybe?

@McOrange

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a thread be steam rollered by one poster as much as *@Abigail12345654321* on this one. You’ve made your opinion known, isn’t it time to give it a rest?

By steamrollered, do you mean you can’t counter-argue successfully McOrange? People have been absolutely horrible to the Op on this thread and treated her as if she is some sort of evil capitalist pig oppressing the women workers when she is nothing of the sort. If we don’t defend women who are out there creating businesses and employment, and attempting to do so in a fair and even handed way, what is the point of forums like mumsnet?

@Russelhobskettle

"You can legally sack anyone within the first 2 years of working for you with no reason

No you can't. There is no qualifying period for discrimination claims."

Op has already said that she can - she isn't in the UK. RTFT maybe?

I don't need to read through the thread - I am fully up to date with it, thanks. I'm responding to a poster who is clearly referring to the two year qualifying period which is applicable in England and wales and is spectacularly wrong about it.

I wonder how many of the posters above who are all for the business paying towards the training, the accrued holiday, etc. are small business owners. And whether their views would actually change were they the owners of a small business (no doubt most of them would say it wouldn't - talk is cheap).

@InTheNameOfAllThatIsHonest

I wonder how many of the posters above who are all for the business paying towards the training, the accrued holiday, etc. are small business owners. And whether their views would actually change were they the owners of a small business (no doubt most of them would say it wouldn't - talk is cheap).

Although this is all not relevant as the OP doesn't live in the UK, the fact is businesses have to comply with legislation. if they cannot afford to pay to comply, then their business isn't viable.

The OP hasn't responded to explain what would happen if she'd paid for someone's training but they didn't complete their 6-month probation period satisfactorily. She will then incur the additional cost of recruiting and training another person.

The OP said she'd have to pay £1k to the training provider for every additional month the pregnant employee needs to effectively resit beyond the 12-14 month period the OP is already paying for. If the OP cannot afford to find £6-12k despite the fact she runs a business and employs 4 people, then that business is not viable.

@Abigail12345654321 Once I realised that MN is feminist for a particular class of women only (mothers), a lot of its threads made more sense.

@MabelsApron A lot of selective feminism on here too.

@Abigail12345654321

By steamrollered, do you mean you can’t counter-argue successfully McOrange? People have been absolutely horrible to the Op on this thread and treated her as if she is some sort of evil capitalist pig oppressing the women workers when she is nothing of the sort. If we don’t defend women who are out there creating businesses and employment, and attempting to do so in a fair and even handed way, what is the point of forums like mumsnet?

Well said. Why should any one poster, 'give it a rest' because some people don't like what they're saying? How rude. How dare someone tell you to shut up? Who do they think they are?! That would make me speak up even more tbh, if I was told to shut the fuck up. Keep going abigail, I am enjoying your posts. I also agree with you, AND the others who say absolutely stinks, and should not be allowed. (A woman starting a new job and not telling the employer she is pregnant.)

She shows herself to be untrustworthy, and if I took her on and discovered she was pregnant a few weeks later, I would do my level best to make sure she was got rid of. I would not want such a deceitful liar working for me, (and she IS a liar. She is lying by omission.)