To do nothing about tenant?

[MyBurdenisHeavy]

Hi folks, happy new year.

We have a flat in London that was used for work 2/3 nights a week. Been WFH since pandemic and started to rent it out a year ago. It’s not typically a “family” building. Mainly young professionals. Anyway we were approached by a company who offered to lease it from us and they would manage the letting. Turns out they have a contract with a homeless charity or such and had a few units in our building housing homeless families during the pandemic. No issues there - all good. Fast forward a year and we’re being contacted by other tenants/owners who managed to get our number, pleading with us to do something about the people in our flat (a mother and 3 boys I understand - 2.5, 4 and 6). Apparently they are making the lives of the people below them (at least 2 flats based on the way they are laid out) an utter misery - stomping, running, jumping from morning to night I’m told. I contacted the company we leased it to and they said that they had received some complaints a few months ago and called out to talk to the family a few times. The complaints kept coming and ultimately they said the woman explained that the children were just playing and being kids so she didn’t know what they wanted her to do. They told me the kids were probably a bit boisterous alright but ultimately that’s part of apartment living and the neighbours just have to accept there’s a family living there and get on with it. The complaints kept coming apparently but they had closed the matter and are no longer responding to them - they told me there is a legal route the other residents could take if they felt strongly about it, but it rarely happens so just sit tight and don’t worry about it.
I’m now up the walls with anxiety and guilt and don’t know what the right thing to do is.
It’s abundantly clear that the woman cannot or will not control the kids (no judgement - just stating fact that it will not be resolved from that side). So the options are to carry on and leave things as they are - thereby upsetting the neighbours and ruining their home life (their words), or terminate the lease (I can do this in 4 months) and cause distress to the woman and her kids.
AIBU to do nothing, stay out of it and leave the family stay there?

Nothing negative going on here. Just an emergency service worker working hard to serve the public.

Im sure your employer would love to hear what you spout on here

JustAnotherPoster-

What do I ‘spout’ exactly?

That people should stop increasing the population of an already overpopulated world?

How terrible.

I pity any parent calling emergency services

And @BluebelllsRosesDaffodills rocks up with her cats bum mouth!

@Excitedforthefuture

I pity any parent calling emergency services

And @BluebelllsRosesDaffodills rocks up with her cats bum mouth!

Bet she loves to watch 19 kids and counting. Probably shouts at the TV.

It’s 22 kids… and the eldest has had one of her own

Oh I’d LOVE to see @BluebelllsRosesDaffodills reaction to the programme

I’m envisioning frothing at the mouth and clenched fists

I think I would find out for myself how bad it actually is. Is it a case of wooden floors + fairly normal boisterous behaviour or is it a family that is in chaos and up all night ect. If the latter I would evict. If it is something that can be resolved with some changes I would try that first.

I live in a similar sounding block - a few years back someone leased the flat to a council, who used it as "emergency" accommodation for difficult to house tenants - which transpired meant anyone that would cause endless hassle with other neighbours if they'd been housed near other tenants of the council.
Several differenct tenants - noisy parties, no respect for common areas, no concern for security, using the garage when they didn't have a parking space in it, and finally an out of control German Shepherd that they used to let crap all over the roof garden and on occassion the stairs. Fortunately they were on the other side of the building to me, so I didn't hear too much of the noise inside my flat.
Thanfully there's clauses in our leases whereby leasholders need to get permission of the freeholder to sublet, and that if sublet, the tenants can't sublet again, so the whole arrangement wasn't in accordance with the lease. I think the owners managed to get out of the arrangement when faced with termination of their lease - but it was a nightmare, and cost a fortune in legal fees that got rolled up into the service charge.
CHeck your own leasehold agreement if you haven't done so already - make sure you haven't done anything to violate that.
The flat doesn't sound suitable for families - if the company you're using don't have the ability to place suitable tenants in the building, terminate the agreement as soon as you can, and either rent through a professional estate agent, or sell the property if you no longer need it.

You think hearing other families is more soul destroying than being evicted with your three young children?

If this were my living conditions being so negatively affected yes. Those responsible for my home being invaded with such levels of noise and disturbance wouldn't be receiving any sympathy from me.

@whenthedoveslie

You think hearing other families is more soul destroying than being evicted with your three young children?

If this were my living conditions being so negatively affected yes. Those responsible for my home being invaded with such levels of noise and disturbance wouldn't be receiving any sympathy from me.

No one even knows if the family are making unreasonable family noise. The complainer says it can't be recorded. I'm quite sure environmental health would have some sort of special recording equipment. To monitor this sort of thing. It probably can't be recorded because there's nothing unreasonable to record

Don't the children go to school? I bet they are usually out for a large part of the day. And if the noise is 8am-11pm then surely that falls within reasonable hours to make normal family noise?

This family's problem is that they are homeless and housed in a property that isn't suitable for a family with small children.

What is it that makes the property unsuitable for this family? It has roof, and walls, and doors, and kitchen, and services in the neighborhood, all the key parts are there. Yes, semi with a big garden would be ideal, but no one is offering them one.

@Londonr, that is true. Though I was referring to a post where they were forced to sell up due to the noise being claimed by neighbours in OP

@Annabellerina

Don't the children go to school? I bet they are usually out for a large part of the day. And if the noise is 8am-11pm then surely that falls within reasonable hours to make normal family noise?

2.5 - no school 4 - either reception or still no school

The neighbours sound more annoying! As others have said it seems more likely that its normal noise when you have kids to the people saying it must be true because its more than one person? In most cases the neighbours will gang up on the tenant they don't like you want dead silence move to the country where its quiet

Of course you have to evict them...

Why should the other neighbours suffer? and you are in breach of your own lease and you duties as the owner not to cause disruption/distress to the other residents.

For all you know they also might have trashed your property and might refuse to leave when asked.

It is obvious the company you are dealing with has not done proper checks or dealt with the complaints accurately and you should not be dealing with them.

This woman should not be in a flat, she should be place in a bigger accommodation with a garden.

I have worked for a big homeless charity in London and we found accommodation for clients and unfortunately we regularly had problems such as this (neighbours complaining about anti-social behaviour) and in all cases the tenants were asked to leave.

@ElectraBlue

Of course you have to evict them...

Why should the other neighbours suffer? and you are in breach of your own lease and you duties as the owner not to cause disruption/distress to the other residents.

For all you know they also might have trashed your property and might refuse to leave when asked.

It is obvious the company you are dealing with has not done proper checks or dealt with the complaints accurately and you should not be dealing with them.

This woman should not be in a flat, she should be place in a bigger accommodation with a garden.

I have worked for a big homeless charity in London and we found accommodation for clients and unfortunately we regularly had problems such as this (neighbours complaining about anti-social behaviour) and in all cases the tenants were asked to leave.

I'm a little confused. You said you worked for a big homeless charity in London. If that's the case surely you know its very hard to find temporary accommodation so a house with a garden is near impossible? Although i agree it would be better for then

I do feel sorry for the other residents. I currently live in an apartment where I get regularly woken up by next door's baby crying around 6am. Fine, I put some ear plugs in and go back to sleep. In contrast, five years ago I lived in a different flat and the noise was insane. It was like an elephant doing jumping jacks on a wooden floor: the ceiling, walls, windows, everything was shaking. The vibrations meant that ear plugs or noise cancelling head phones were useless. It was utterly miserable & I soon handed in my notice and moved elsewhere.

I would guess that since the other residents have gone through the effort to track down your contact details, the noise must be considerable. Most people wouldn't go through that effort if it wasn't significantly bothering them. Maybe the noise levels are reasonable, it's difficult to say if you haven't heard it yourself. But (and I say this as both a landlord and a tenant) I do think you have a responsibility towards your tenants as well as the other residents. If you want to rent your property to a family you should make the effort to minimise disturbance to the other residents, for example by putting in additional underlay or floor insulation.

Finally, also remember that you may one day want to use the flat again and/or may need your neighbours to do you a favour. It may be in your own interest to maintain a decent relation with the other residents in the building.

The woman surely wants to stay there- so she needs to step up and reduce the noise. I’ve had two boys - and neither were allowed to run in the house or kick a football around in it. They won’t be allowed to run around a classroom either. Unless there is a reason why she can’t take them out she needs to be running them around the local park, playground or racing up and down the pavement to burn their energy up. My grandparents had a house with a tiny back yard and no front garden and when we stayed there in the summers we use to have races up and down the pavement. Sounds old fashioned but she needs to get them moving and making noise outside the flat not in it.
I would not want to have to be responsible for evicting a family but I would go round and ask if I can sit in the neighbours flat below and listen. If it’s bad and they’re not exaggerating I would make it clear to the association that the noise must reduce. You can’t expect silence but constant loud banging and thudding on the ceiling is more than anyone should have to put up with. It would be soul destroying, yes, to lose your home but this parent needs to take action to quieten her kids down while inside and the best way to do that is get them outside for part of the time.

I wonder if you could put different flooring down and insulate more for noise. Wooden or laminate floors can be really noisy for people below. There have been court cases.

Housing associations shouldn't be allowed to let individual flats in this way, they should only be able to provide flats where they own the entire building and all the flats are let to their tenants.

Reading the OP's story, my first thought was "well what did you expect to happen?" In my experience social housing tenants have a different view of what's acceptable and what isn't when compared to private tenants and leasehold owners. Not in every case, before someone shouts the social housing equivalent of NAMALT at me, but they're much more likely to be disruptive to neighbours.

It's better to house them in a block of flats where they can all be together.

@MorningStarling

Housing associations shouldn't be allowed to let individual flats in this way, they should only be able to provide flats where they own the entire building and all the flats are let to their tenants.

Reading the OP's story, my first thought was "well what did you expect to happen?" In my experience social housing tenants have a different view of what's acceptable and what isn't when compared to private tenants and leasehold owners. Not in every case, before someone shouts the social housing equivalent of NAMALT at me, but they're much more likely to be disruptive to neighbours.

It's better to house them in a block of flats where they can all be together.

What would you call that @MorningStarling ? A ghetto, maybe? Fuck off.