To think this might be sex discrimination in the work place?

[CalIie]

Hello,

I’m not a mum but this seems like a really helpful forum to seek advice.

Basically, in March I started a new job. Another guy also interviewed for the same job and we were both hired at the same time.

The job was advertised as an entry level advisor.

I am 23 and graduated in 2021. The other guy is also 23. He graduated in 2020.

Despite applying for the same job we were given different titles. I was given the title Advisor, whereas he was given the title Business Advisor (not the actual titles but just to illustrate - in reality they are very similar).

As we joined at the same time we became quite friendly and he disclosed to me his salary was £27,500, whereas mine is £24,500 (I took a pay cut to join).

Now you might say he’s got a different job title so that warrants a different salary. The thing is we do the exact same job. Literally we discuss and then divide the work load between ourselves evenly.

I also thought maybe it’s because of his experience. When he left uni he worked for a PR firm for one year.

In contrast I took a gap year before my third year started and did a 6 month paid internship (which in reality was a proper job - not just fetching tea or what have you) and when I graduated I worked in an advisor role for 6 months.

So added together we have the same amount of experience, in fact I’d say mine is more relevant to the current role.

I’m suspicious that they have given him a different title, so as to absolve themselves of any responsibility if I were to bring up this discrepancy. On the other hand he does have more “proper” experience. Or perhaps he was just better at negotiating his salary.

I should caveat I love my job and would not want to jeopardise it. I will also add I am the only woman in my department of 9 (it’s a very male dominated sector and difficult to get into unless you have the right connections, which he has and I don’t).

To conclude: do you ladies think I am being unreasonable to think this might be sex discrimination or is it simply different pay for a different role? If so, how should I address it? I was thinking I could tactfully bring it up when my contract is up for renewal in February…

If you took the time to read my ramblings, thank you very much!

Is there anyway you can get hold of his job description? Or write down exactly what he does and compare to what you do? Then use this to ask for a raise.

It sounds as if he negotiated a higher salary, and you didn't. Which men seem to be more likely to do. Not discrimination per se, but you may be able to put a case forward for a payrise if you are doing equal work.

I would go to my boss and set out my case for an equal salary on the grounds it's the same job.

It's neither sex discrimination (although might be at play) nor different salaries for different roles. As you say, you do the same thing.

Job descriptions are worth checking. There may be some additional responsibility in theory that has not happened in practice. I doubt it though.

@murasaki thanks, I think you might be right. He’s a very confident public school guy whereas I’m much more reserved. I could definitely see him being better at negotiating.

@TinyLittlePandaSneeze and @Huckleberries73 thanks both for your replies. I have the description as described in the job ad. We both do the same job to a T and follow the job description exactly. He doesn’t have any extra responsibilities.

@SummerHouse thank you. I agree it probably is more nuanced than just “sex discrimination”. I might do this when my contract is up for renewal.

I think it’s a strong possibility. It may be difficult to prove, though.

I would start by asking your manager what the difference between your roles is and how you get to be a business advisor. I would also start looking for a new job with a higher salary to use as leverage.

You could also look at other hires and see if things like men having different titles but doing the same work as women is a broader issue.

@NumberTheory Thank you for the advice. I think I will ask my boss to explain the difference during my contract review.

I doubt I’d have much leverage though. I’m young and inexperienced, it’s also a very niche and competitive sector where everybody knows each other so I doubt they’d have much problem replacing me tbh

Good advice about comparing the hiring practices for other others. Unfortunately, there’s only been one other hire since we joined - a Senior Advisor with 10+ experience so not very comparable...

I'd go for sex discrimination. I assume it's private sector? The fact that it's a male dominated industry and you're the only woman in a team of 9 suggests a history of preferring male employees and of appointing "in their own image".
I suggest you go to HR rather than your line manager. It's an employment matter not a management issue. Tell HR y what you have said here. Tell them you are not seeking anything to which you are not entitled but you want an explanation for the discrepancy in salary.

It is absolutely par for the course for women to stay silent about these matters for fear of being seen as uppity or demanding. Which is a sexist concept in itself. Would your colleague hesitate if he felt he was being treated unfairly? Would he bollocks. If you didn't negotiate as hard as he did on job offer, this too is a well-known means of indirect sex discrimination as its well known women don't negotiate as high a salary as men. This is why public sector don't offer jobs with negotiated salaries but bung people on a grade on entry.

I'm not sure what you would benefit from throwing accusations around. They will manage you out eventually as a trouble maker. Your best bet is to negotiate a pay rise in a friendly and constructive manner. If it proves impossible, mention your colleagues salary and ask how you get that salary. Only once these steps have been tried and failed, consider slinging some mud about.

Could be negotiation skills. I recently found out I'm on similar money to a few people who are senior to me in our company. A discussion with our boss revealed that that is what they are happy with because they value working for our company and the reputation it has in our industry whereas I don't a requested more

I doubt I’d have much leverage though. I’m young and inexperienced, it’s also a very niche and competitive sector where everybody knows each other so I doubt they’d have much problem replacing me tbh sad

This paragraph makes it look like negotiation skills may well have been a big part of the issue.

Ask your manager about the difference between you and your colleague and how to get what he has. But also consider reading a few books on negotiating salary and how to get on in the workplace.

Yes, it sounds discriminatory. Sadly, v hard to get redress.

As PP suggests would seek a £3k pay rise at your review - without raising your colleague’s salary - on the basis of your contribution in your time there.

In future, don’t take pay cuts when moving jobs.

If they won’t raise your salary and/or there is limited scope for progression vs your male colleagues would move on once you’ve got what you can from your role and reasonable time on your CV

@awesomekilick I think there is a lot of truth in your reply. I will probably take @Franca123’s advice to begin with. I really love my job and her on well with all my colleagues so I don’t want to start throwing accusations about. If my concerns aren’t addressed I might reevaluate.

@Woodmarsh Interesting anecdote, thanks for sharing. I think you’re right about my negotiating skills…

@NumberTheory You are probably right! I’ve always been very shy but I feel this job has really helped develop my confidence. Always room for improvement

That last post of mine sounds like I’m putting you down and I don’t mean to. I just mean your paragraph about being young and inexperienced shows a lack of understanding of your value.

No manager wants to lose a good worker they’ve hired. You’re in a nice industry where everyone knows everyone and they could easily fill your post. But they chose you. They wanted you. And they clearly think someone else who is doing just what you do, presumably to the same standard as you, is worth 3k more. So if you can show you’re interested in more money and prepared to go to an employer who will pay you more, there’s every reason to think your current employer would find you that valuable too.

*niche

@Dozer Thanks for your input. I get what you mean about taking salary cuts. This was just an amazing job and my boss at my last place was a really bully so I was desperate to leave before being stuck in a 6 month notice period.

Will definitely ask for a raise in my renegotiation.

@NumberTheory Not at all! It was good advice and I appreciate feedback.

Callie - when they offered you the job, did you ask for more or just accept what they offered?

Op have you been given his job description and examined it? Are you sure it’s the exact same job description just with two different titles? You both work for the same manager, in the same team, doing rhe exact same role?

It is permissible to pay different rates for rhe same job. What’s not ok is to pay less solely because you’re female.

Is that what you think they are doing?

In addition, I’m sorry, I’ve recruited grads before, in entry level positions and I would in no way consider you’re internship the same as his post degree role.

Make an appointment with HR and ask them why they are paying you, a woman, less than a man for an identical job. Remind them that you literally divvy up work between you. Then tell them you expect them to increase your salary and pay you back pay to the day you start work, or you will seek legal advice. Be nice and tell them that you are sure it is an oversight and not deliberate sex discrimination. But it is sex discrimination.
Honestly. Don’t take this shit. Don’t wait until a review. Don’t take it to your manager. Take it to HR who know exactly what the implications of their actions are.

He's being paid about 11% more than you.

@CalIie what I didn't make clear from my post was I'm female and the majority of my colleagues are male, I'm just pushy (or they aren't pushy enough?)