To think this might be sex discrimination in the work place?

[CalIie]

Hello,

I’m not a mum but this seems like a really helpful forum to seek advice.

Basically, in March I started a new job. Another guy also interviewed for the same job and we were both hired at the same time.

The job was advertised as an entry level advisor.

I am 23 and graduated in 2021. The other guy is also 23. He graduated in 2020.

Despite applying for the same job we were given different titles. I was given the title Advisor, whereas he was given the title Business Advisor (not the actual titles but just to illustrate - in reality they are very similar).

As we joined at the same time we became quite friendly and he disclosed to me his salary was £27,500, whereas mine is £24,500 (I took a pay cut to join).

Now you might say he’s got a different job title so that warrants a different salary. The thing is we do the exact same job. Literally we discuss and then divide the work load between ourselves evenly.

I also thought maybe it’s because of his experience. When he left uni he worked for a PR firm for one year.

In contrast I took a gap year before my third year started and did a 6 month paid internship (which in reality was a proper job - not just fetching tea or what have you) and when I graduated I worked in an advisor role for 6 months.

So added together we have the same amount of experience, in fact I’d say mine is more relevant to the current role.

I’m suspicious that they have given him a different title, so as to absolve themselves of any responsibility if I were to bring up this discrepancy. On the other hand he does have more “proper” experience. Or perhaps he was just better at negotiating his salary.

I should caveat I love my job and would not want to jeopardise it. I will also add I am the only woman in my department of 9 (it’s a very male dominated sector and difficult to get into unless you have the right connections, which he has and I don’t).

To conclude: do you ladies think I am being unreasonable to think this might be sex discrimination or is it simply different pay for a different role? If so, how should I address it? I was thinking I could tactfully bring it up when my contract is up for renewal in February…

If you took the time to read my ramblings, thank you very much!

@Delphigirl

Make an appointment with HR and ask them why they are paying you, a woman, less than a man for an identical job. Remind them that you literally divvy up work between you. Then tell them you expect them to increase your salary and pay you back pay to the day you start work, or you will seek legal advice. Be nice and tell them that you are sure it is an oversight and not deliberate sex discrimination. But it is sex discrimination. Honestly. Don’t take this shit. Don’t wait until a review. Don’t take it to your manager. Take it to HR who know exactly what the implications of their actions are.

Don't take this advice. The original salary was clearly open to negotiation. However going forward you can ask for a raise so that you are paid similarly for the same work.

Some of the advice on here is bonkers. There's ways to negotiate successfully and there's ways to make yourself like a bad smell around the office. Would this complaint stand up in a tribunal? Would it be worth taking to a tribunal? Doubt it. Just negotiate a pay rise. It's a skill we all have to learn at some point. Only sling mud around if you have nothing to loose and perhaps you're trying to get a pay out on leaving.

I had a very similar situation. I did a list of all of my tasks; both in the job description and in excess. I sat down with the MD and asked directly why so and so was paid more than me, I didn’t argue, or make any accusations but rather presented my case. I got the pay raise / but not back pay.

@Thevoiceofreason2021 is the voice of reason!!!!!

Never negotiate a pay rise based on someone else’s position; negotiate based on your own worth and performance - and subtlety highlight that your role is worth the same, or more, as others at the same grade due to YOUR performance in the role. But focus on your worth, do not bring other people into it and definitely don’t try a discrimination tactic without hard facts as a graduate (unless you are fine to walk away from the company).

What more hard facts do you need Chilver?
It is no legal answer to say the man negotiated better.
They are paying her less than a man doing the identical job. Let HR know you know, and won’t stand for it.

Usually I am the first to say "you need to negotiate". But based on your post, it does smell off.

I really, really recommend Carrie Gracie's book Equal, which both shows how the BBC discriminated against her and the personal cost to her of fighting it. Unfortunately your choices are a career-limiting fight - even if you win, you're unlikely to want to carry on working there - or accept it.

I've recently had a similar situation, the company benchmarked our salaries, I got an increase and my male comparator did not as he was already on a higher rate. We fulfil exactly the same role.
Turns out that he'd negotiated an increase after 18 months in the role. I started later and didn't get an increase after 18 months.
I raised a grievance with HR who agreed that I'd been treated unfavourably. It was all very calm and amicable.
I've now been back paid the comparative difference in salary and they have also paid the pension contributions that I missed out on. We do have different strengths but can adequately cover for each other. I think he was more outraged than I was when we discovered the discrepancy!
Look at ACAS info on equivalent roles, you've got a good case, good luck OP.

Didn't the Asda case just prove that job titles mean nothing, its all about comparative work. However, they are set pay scales. Are you on pay scales or can you negotiate individual wages?

In the first instance I would definitely negotiate on my own worth. You took a pay cut to work there so now say you're looking at being put up to your previous wage because you have proved your value at the company. Thinking about it, you wouldn't have negotiated a lower wage so did you just take the offered salary? Was he offered the same and then negotiated up?

Are you definitely doing exactly the same work?

If so, I would raise it with HR. Just tell them it has come to your attention that he is earning £3k more for exactly the same work. Approach it calmly. Ask if there has been a mistake.

www.acas.org.uk/equal-pay

It seems your current salary is based largely on what you negotiated and we’re willing to accept, you also had experience that is less significant than his. However you’re doing comparable work and your argument should be that you deserve a pay rise on your own merits, and you should ask for the rise you think he will be going for on top of his curent salary. I would then say that I am aware of salary differences in the team currently but that any perceived gap in experience has now been more than closed, and you believe your ask now accurately reflects what you should be receiving.

Could you tackle it from point of view of job title. If you are doing identical job it should be same title if not why not. It’s confusing for clients etc.
Then once made up to same title as him negotiate at next review. Going rate for Man title job is y.
It’s very easy to be dismissed under 2 years and if it’s a small niche male dominated industry I don’t think it’s as easy as complaining to hr.

If it’s a male dominated industry they should be trying harder to ensure parity and fairness for women.
Honestly all of you advising her to wait or pussyfoot around are the reason this stuff still happens. Because they can get away with it. Grow a backbone and call it out.

Can you trust the guy when he says his salary is £27.5k? He may have told you an inflated figure just to mess with you - if he did then it seems to be working!

I was employed as an 'officer' and another colleague a 'manager' we were in charge of different areas but it was the same job. I asked my manager about this and I was promoted to manager. I would ask your line manager/HR. Do you have a union rep you could speak to?

It's possible though that he negotiated a higher salary than you.

Maybe the arguments he brought forward were so strong that the managers decided they would raise his salary.

I know that in my job we are all paid different salaries, despite having the same job title and doing essentially the same job. The salary depends on many different favors, for example on our previous experience and I guess also how you negotiate in the interview.

I think a company can do this, it doesn't have to be illegal.

It's only illegal if they pay you less because you're a woman, but it will be difficult to prove.

I doubt I’d have much leverage though. I’m young and inexperienced, it’s also a very niche and competitive sector where everybody knows each other so I doubt they’d have much problem replacing me tbh sad

This perspective is your problem. You’d said elsewhere that you DID have experience before you joined - a comparative amount to the other guy. And since then you’ve gained experience in the company. It’s actually a complete ball ache to hire and train new employees - don’t forget that. The longer you’re in a role and doing well, the more you know the company, the people, how things are done there.

You could instead have said that you’re a graduate with great experience and performance history, gets on well with colleagues, has a bright future in a specialised industry. Instead you massively put yourself down and undervalued yourself. If the other guy negotiated a better salary and title then the fact that he did that shows business acumen. You did not. Learn from this, get savvy, and most importantly, back yourself.

Absolutely do not bring this stuff up to HR and start complaining because that will look awful. Mumsnet loves to complain. Instead, do great at your job and at your next review ask for a payrise because you are performing at that level and you firmly believe your work is worth that.

Are you under the same team and line manager? How did you get different job titles despite being hired at the same time?

Also to add if you are indeed doing the same job you can always talk to ACAS and see if you’d have a case before a tribunal. But don’t go off complaining until you’re sure where you stand.

Reason being while there is sex discrimination ‘equal roles’ and job titles are also nebulous. There are people with made-up titles and an excuse to pay more. Simultaneously there are people with the same ‘title’ but one has more experience/ specialist knowledge and so does more. People cannot always be paid more/promoted immediately at every increase in responsibility as there are grades and competencies.

I’m all for making as much noice as possible if it is true but try the most sensible way first.

Don't make accusations. Your objective is to get e higher salary. Book a meeting, explain that this other colleague does the same job as you but gets paid more and that you would like them to match the salary. See what happens. If they decline then you can ask why?

It sounds like there are grounds under the Equal pay act for discussion.

Before you take some of the more gung ho advice here look closely at your contract. Many have confidentiality clauses that preclude employees discussing salary. Don't start your negotiation by saying "I understand from John that he earns more than me".

I'd state the case in a setting such as appraisal time by saying you do the exact same role, thus you would now expect (based on performance) the exact same title and any pay and benefits that title warrants. Be ready to say, you've done a market comparison and that would look like a 4K increase.

I believe it is illegal to tell employees they are not allowed to discuss salaries

It is sex discrimination, and is exactly what the Equality Act 2010 exists to protect you from.

Things to note:

1. The equality act guarantees you equal pay for equal work. Since you and your male colleague divide the work between you, you evidently do equal work. (It also covers 'equivalent work' which is broader, but it sounds like you don't need to go there). Is your colleague is willing to back you up that you just share the work out between you?
2. job title is irrelevant: it's the work you do that matters in the Equality Act
3. How well he negotiated when getting the job is irrelevant. Legally, 'he negotiated better' is not a defense for unequal pay. People often don't realise that. The simple fact that a man is being paid more than you (a woman) for the same work is enough to trigger the protection. You don't need to prove that it's because you're a woman, just that it's unequal
4. You're entitled to compensation for unequal pay in the past as well, so you'd not only be looking for your salary to be equalised, but also a settlement to cover the difference in your pay since joining
5. You do need to be under a contract of employment, or else have the same organisation responsible for both your pay. If you are a contractor with a limited company, you probably aren't protected. You say your contract ends in February. What type of employment contract is it?
6. The law explicitly prohibits retribution - both against you using the Act, and also against your male colleague telling you his salary. Doesn't matter whether he has a confidentiality clause: the Equality Act overrides it.
7. But I'm a bit worried about you saying that your contract is doe to be renewed in February. If you're on temporary contracts and they just decided not to renew it because they didn't want to deal with this, I don't know whether you'd have any protection from that.

If you are a permanent employee, you really should raise it with HR and get the pay rise to match him, and also back-pay. If you're on temporary contracts, I'd weigh it up. But either way, push like hell to get a match going forward in February!

Oh, and you absolutely can go do this and continue to work for the company - so long as they are a fairly mature, decent company and you are positive and professional. You can be clear that you want to stay and continue to contribute to the business (etc) but you are entitled to fair treatment.

These cases are almost always settled without going to court, since court cases cause reputational damage to everyone involved. If it got that far, you'd want to think carefully about whether you want to go ahead. But your employer really, really don't want it to go to court either.

Yes your contractual term here is a factor (are you FTC?) for consideration purely as to your personal Circumstances but....

If you can prove you are doing the same work, then the legal presumption is made that the difference in pay is due to your sex. That is the law.

However- the water can be muddied. Is there a pay grade system? Did the hiring manager have discretion around starting salaries provided role benchmarks were maintained? The manager has the right to their opinion that the other person would bring more value, but if that isn't the case then it is discrimination - albeit likely indirect.

The employer must prove a material factor in any difference of pay.

There are lots of guidelines around this for employers. I wouldn't assume direct discrimination ie deliberate but none the less you should raise what you have been told as a concern.

If you wait till contract end and they don't renew, you will never know the reason. All your employment rights are fully intact right now, so consider the ask.