To think the issue of poor white boys failing at school is overlooked?

[hibbledibble]

They have the worst outcome of any group.

I highly recommend watching H is for Harry, documentary film which is available currently on Netflix, and highlights this issue.

It's about a boy with SEN, including illiteracy, and his experience in a mainstream school over two years.

It brought tears to my eyes. It was great to see how much progress he made in small group teaching, but sad that his difficulties in class meant him eventually being excluded from the school, and there was not much information given as to what happened to him following this.

It's heartbreaking that this boy could have done really well with ongoing intense intervention, but that the barrier to this is funding. It seemed at the end that the school gave up on him, as he just spent time in the nursery.

I would be curious to hear others views.

So your basically just saying we should accept that those from poorer backgrounds will do worse? And then keep perpetuating that cycle rather than looking at why and what can be done to level the playing field?

If the education system is failing a whole group of people that’s a problem.

@WhatScratch

You know what helped poor white boys? Sure Start. A shame the Conservatives were voted in and cut the funding by two thirds.

They also forced ongoing (year on year) council budget cuts that has cut local authority’s funding to youth services by almost £1billion. This has also lead directly to halving funding for early intervention services.

www.ymca.org.uk/outofservice
www.ncb.org.uk/about-us/media-centre/news-opinion/councils-forced-halve-spending-early-help

If you care about poor, white boys maybe vote for someone who doesn’t go out of their way to cut funding to existing services designed to help them.

This. A million times.

Its a strange group really, poor white boys. As clearly the barriers to their success are not being white or a boy as white boys also perform really well, particularly in the workplace. so you are really left trying to work out what is different about being poor in different groups.

@BusBusBus

Its a strange group really, poor white boys. As clearly the barriers to their success are not being white or a boy as white boys also perform really well, particularly in the workplace. so you are really left trying to work out what is different about being poor in different groups.

Exactly this. Poor people of any race will be poorer educated not just quite boys! This argument is very bizarre

[quote LittleRoundRobin]@hibbledibble

100 million per cent agree, but it's a taboo subject, as we are not allowed to say white people are disadvantaged in any way. White, working class males (and lower-working-class males,) are the most fucked-over demographic these days. Not only boys, but men also. Up to around 60 years old anyway.

People from ethnic minorities get a lot more support.

And as for the 'this has been an issue for working class white boys for about 15-20 years' rhetoric on here, that further reinforces the argument. They have been fucked over for 15-20 years and no-one is doing anything about it?! Why not?!! Any other demographic would be given help and support.

And no, I DIDN'T vote Tory. Never have.[/quote]
People from ethic minorities do not get much more support. As a very broad stereotype they may get more support from within their community, but the government is not throwing cash at working class kids of any race.
This is just anecdotal but where I currently work (northern ex-mining totally fucked by tories town) there's a lot of the old attitudes towards sons that doesn't reflect the present situation- the whole don't worry too much because you can always get a job in the factory etc. The problem is the days where you can walk into a permanent, reasonably paid job in the factory/pit or anywhere else have long gone. Again just anecdotally but the families I've worked with, some newly arrived and some second generation) don't tend to have the same attitude; they understand that education might be a path out of poverty so they push the kids a bit harder. Again this is a very broad stereotype and only based on what I've seen. It's not meant as some explanation of the situation nationally.

Another issue that I'm seeing working in a community that has generational unemployment is that we're trying to show the value of education but this does not reflect their reality at all. When they look at their parents and wider family they see no tangible benefit to being made to go through the school system because it doesn't appear to have had a beneficial impact on their lives at all. Some (not all) immigrant families I've worked with have already worked through the education system in their home country and had well paying jobs and are now in the situation of having to do it again here.

This ☝🏾Thank you flashbac

☝🏾

There is a difference between working class (or a working class job) and poor. If you’re a plumber or mechanic or electrician etc, you are not likely to be poor and are likely to earn more than many, or even most, middle class jobs.

Have not read the whole thread, but my opinion, at least in the SE where I teach, working class white boys have opportunities to earn a reasonable living without GCSE success, trades, warehouse work, driving etc. Girls who aren’t academic get pushed towards care work or ‘health and beauty’ which pay very poor money. Therefore girls work harder because they need qualifications more.

In my family I went to university, my brother dropped out with a couple of GCSEs he is probably earning more than me now, but I would have struggled more than him if I’d not done well in school.

@WonderfulYou

Yes see that here as well, all the white boys in my tutor group in year 11 have applied to college to do construction skills- which all their dads so and actually earn way more than me!!!

Haven’t read the full thread but the issue is far from overlooked in schools, maybe by society as a whole but definitely not in education.

I’m also of the opinion that education isn’t all of the answer, the idea is that with a good education (or rather good qualifications) you get more work opportunities and earn more money and have a better life. I think we need to address inequality more generally, some people will never get GCSEs, they just don’t have the capacity, much less go to university, why shouldn’t those people have a good life, why should they always be struggling? We need to address wider inequality beyond education.

I spent much of my teaching career working in former pit towns and inner city schools.

The more dependent the town was on the pit and the more isolated that area was (restricting diversification of new employment opportunities), the deeper the effects of the loss of the pit. To reduce unemployment statistics, many older pit workers were put onto disability benefits. The culture of working was lost. The social culture of the pit was lost. To get employment beyond your town, you have to drive. Lessons cost, cars cost, insurance and maintenence are costs. If you don't have that money to invest, opportunities are very restricted. You're left with a very small, restricted world.
It's like telling a chicken that it's free range... it is on paper, but there are 100,000s of hens between you and the barn door that you'll never reach and you're no better than the hen being recognised as barn raised.

Go on to the names boards, and there is plenty of prejudice against "chavvy" working class names. Wayne will have more challenge to be taken seriously than William. Probably not as deeply ingrained as prejudice to obviously "foreign" names, and easier to adjust through the generations without rejecting your culture, but prejudice between white communities exists.

British families tend to be nuclear not extended. A Pakistani or Bangladeshi boy also has comparably low educational outcomes, but at the end of the school day, he's less likely to walk into an empty house. British community cultures are weak. Most aren't connected to a religious community. Migrant cultures tend to retain a link to their origins and a sense of somewhere beyond the immediate surroundings. While a migrant may have low resources in their host country and be subject to racism, but there is a drive for bettering themselves, and they've rarely come from the lowest social structure in their orignating country. That does feed into a family culture through the generations and while it might not be the best tool for working through the education system of a different culture and language, it is a psycological advantage over a family whose been stuck in one place without opportunities for generations.

Many people were literally stuck in the pit towns because of negative equity. Many put their redundancy money into their mortgage to secure thier housing, but the values collapsed trapping them there. There will be generations with undiagnosed specific learning needs like dyslexia or ANs like ADHD. They weren't looked for and it becomes part of the normal culture of the family to struggle. Schools are better than 20, 30 years ago, but budgets are limited and even if teachers see a potential SEN it still needs family support to diagnose. Often teachers don't see it either, or not before it's very late. It's easier to be taken seriously by HCPs when you're from an educated background with professional experience to support your concerns.

The children's centres were a great inititative because they created an approachable, friendly support network at an early stage in a child's development. It's easier to support a parent through playing with their child than a few years later when they get to parents evening at school. There are many parents who had tough experiences at school who view them with a suspicious, defensive trauma response and that can be hard to work with collaboratively.

@wonderstuff

Have not read the whole thread, but my opinion, at least in the SE where I teach, working class white boys have opportunities to earn a reasonable living without GCSE success, trades, warehouse work, driving etc. Girls who aren’t academic get pushed towards care work or ‘health and beauty’ which pay very poor money. Therefore girls work harder because they need qualifications more.

In my family I went to university, my brother dropped out with a couple of GCSEs he is probably earning more than me now, but I would have struggled more than him if I’d not done well in school.

This. Poor white boys have worse educational outcomes, but still tend to earn more than most other gender / ethnic combinations.

Focusing more attention on improving the educational outcomes for this group will actually have the effect of worsening the gender / ethnicity pay gap.

@dayslikethese1

If it's all about parental attitude and lack of time etc. though then why do girls on FSM do better? Curious as I haven't read that report but I have seen this headline a lot.

Entirely based on my own experience, but I would say it’s because they’re expected to do better. The whole thing of ‘girls are cleverer than boys’ etc. Plus a lot of traditionally more female dominated jobs that girls might aspire to, because they’re more aware of them, like teaching or nursing, do require a level of education. I think therefore girls see more value in education as a whole - there are obviously plenty that dont!

"If the education system is failing a whole group of people that’s a problem."

It isn't education that's failing them. This is actually one of the key aspects of the report, which of course isn't made clear by it, or then reported on or discussed.

Its systemic social issues that are the problem.

African parents - oh you got 90%? What happened to the other 10%?
Don't ever argue with the teacher they've got their qualifications, you haven't.
Why aren't you reading your book?
You can't be a doctor with these grades, do better.
If your cousin can get A*, so can you.
We didn't come all the way to uk to watch you fail....

I'm sure parents from a variety of countries are the same. Is the parental attitude similar in white working class families? Is school and education made the priority?

@wonderstuff

I’m also of the opinion that education isn’t all of the answer, the idea is that with a good education (or rather good qualifications) you get more work opportunities and earn more money and have a better life. I think we need to address inequality more generally, some people will never get GCSEs, they just don’t have the capacity, much less go to university, why shouldn’t those people have a good life, why should they always be struggling? We need to address wider inequality beyond education.

Absolutely agree. I was thinking something like this after reading the OP, but wouldn't have expressed quite so well.

@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot Yes, and also, again from just personal experience, if you're female and not academic, you're pretty screwed. In my home town the girls who didn't get the grades to go to uni, or didn't want to go to uni, they worked in a shop, or a care home, or went to the local college to do hairdressing, beauty or childcare. All low paid jobs, which they then have up as soon as they had kids, as the nursery fees would have eaten up their whole salary.
Boys who don't do well at school have more options for well paid work - various trades and the army, for example (yes, girls can do these too but they're still overwhelmingly male dominated).
I read some statistics showing the gender pay gap is widest between non graduates. That means that although white working class boys might do badly at school, they still go on to earn significantly more than white working class girls. The latter are actually the most disadvantaged because they often end up at home looking after the children, not always through choice...relying on the man's wage, or on benefits if he buggers off...shut out of the workplace because the jobs available to them don't pay enough to afford childcare.
So IMO the obsession with getting working class white boys to be academic is a bit misguided. Grades aren't everything and if they're not interested in school, then what's wrong with encouraging them to pursue a trade?

@Mouseonmychair "you see the howls of racism when this was tried? www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/dec/30/private-schools-defend-refusal-of-1m-donation-to-help-poor-white-boys"

Don't see any howls of racism there at all. The schools weren't able to accept the donation because terms of it would break the charity commission rules. The school would have to discriminate on who could benefit based on race, and their access to the school would be based on this.

The confusion with the Stormzy bursary is that the students who benefit from it have already been accepted to Cambridge and could attend if they got the bursary or not, this would not be the case for the students at Dulwich and Winchester.

The white lives matter point is just poor.

I think its a lot to do with aspirations and role models. If your parents are in a deadend job or on benefits, then thats all you know.

It is unfair to say that schools are unaware of their underachievement or have done nothing about it. they are and they do. They have been a focus for intervention for years and years.

The problem is that there are so many of them. In my school white boys from low income/ no income families make up a very sizeable proportion of the cohort. When it comes to GCSE results the contrast is stricking. Subjects which are opted for mainly by girls have far better reults. (As an aside I do wonder of there would be so much concern if the reverse were true and girls were doing less well).

Other than the large number of boys in school the big issue is with parents. Many parents of these boys do not care about education. At all. They don't engage with us. They don't attend parents evenings. They don't send their sons to the booster sessions before school, after school and in the holidays. When they do engage it is often to some in to shout at us for something. They undermine attempts at discipline in school, ignore school uniform policies and are happy to put the blame on school when their sons get into trouble out of school.

It also does not help that the boys have such low aspirations. They believe that it is entirely possible to get rich quickly and with little effort because those are their famous role models.

@Porfre

As a brown female.

From an early age there were two things instilled into me-
1.the only reason we came to this country was to get a good education for you. You've got family back home, but they are languishing on the farm getting the servants to do everything. And slowly decaying. The farm was making less money and getting smaller as it passed through the generations. We could have moved back, I would have been fine in my lifetime, but by then time of the grandkids cos of inheritance, the farm wouldn't have been able to support the next generation.

1. When it comes to getting a job there is a hierarchy. If its between me, a brown male, a white girl and a white male- the employer would pick the white male. Then between the white girl/ brown male and then me.

If I want the job I've gottta be better than the white girl/ brown male. And a whole lot better than the white male .

I was taught this this Primary school. And at school there were loads of asian girls who said they didnt bother learning cos they wouldn't be allowed to study further by their families and would be married by the time they finished school.

I think family expectations play a big part.

I'm with you there.

The only extra support I received was the support my parents gave and paid for. They didn't have a lot of money but my dad would take up extra markings in the evenings and would let me know how many extra lessons he can pay for. They paid for extra maths, English and chemistry lessons near exam periods to make sure I get top results. On top of that, gifts my parents gave us were usually SQA exam prep books and similar educational books from the age of 8. This was the same for other black families, Asians and Arabs I knew. Like you said it is not all, my friend who already knew she was getting married at 17 didn't bother and just stopped going to school at 15. For me I knew why my parents brought me here and what all that overtime was for. For me to get the best education I can get and have a better life.

Parental engagement is the too determiner of how your child views education.

In my home town the girls who didn't get the grades to go to uni, or didn't want to go to uni, they worked in a shop, or a care home, or went to the local college to do hairdressing, beauty or childcare. All low paid jobs, which they then have up as soon as they had kids, as the nursery fees would have eaten up their whole salary.
I agree, but the problem isn't the jobs they do, hairdressing, care work etc are perfectly valid careers, the problem is low pay that people can't live on. Imo the biggest thing the Gov could do to alleviate the shocking levels of poverty in the UK is build (or buy) more social housing and provide free childcare. The focus on education attainment can only ever lift a few children out of poverty (which is actually the real problem) if poverty wages for other jobs, absolutely essential work, still exists.

Also, illiterate women tend not to end up in prison at the same rate as men so don't cause problems for others so much therefore tend not to matter.