To think the issue of poor white boys failing at school is overlooked?

[hibbledibble]

They have the worst outcome of any group.

I highly recommend watching H is for Harry, documentary film which is available currently on Netflix, and highlights this issue.

It's about a boy with SEN, including illiteracy, and his experience in a mainstream school over two years.

It brought tears to my eyes. It was great to see how much progress he made in small group teaching, but sad that his difficulties in class meant him eventually being excluded from the school, and there was not much information given as to what happened to him following this.

It's heartbreaking that this boy could have done really well with ongoing intense intervention, but that the barrier to this is funding. It seemed at the end that the school gave up on him, as he just spent time in the nursery.

I would be curious to hear others views.

@EightWheelGirl I thjnk you're misunderstanding, white English are massively over represented at apprentiship levels. It isn't the same as someone working as unskilled labour

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/a-to-c-in-english-and-maths-gcse-attainment-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest

Here is a link to the statistics, if anyone is interested. I have found it fascinating to learn about this more.

There are quite a few incorrect assertions on this thread. If results are broken down further by ethnicity, Irish and gypsy/Roma travellers have the worst by far, not Black Carribbean.

While travellers are included within the statistics for white children, their small numbers has a small effect on the overall statistics, so it is incorrect to say that poor white boys do relatively well, if it were not for the inclusion of traveller boys.

What is clear is that socioeconomic background has a big effect on educational outcomes for all children, but more so for some ethnicities than others.

One explanation for the relatively good outcomes for children of non white backgrounds, is that they often have access to supplementary education, which has a significant positive effect.

It would be great to have supplementary educational opportunities available for more children.

Some of that supplementry education is of a religious nature e.g. lessons at a mosque etc. When I was a teenager I taught at sunday school, we listened to the children read, helped them with their spelling etc as part of fun activities. But the reality is that (very generally) white children of what would have been a christian upbringing a couple of generations ago are now far less likly to be involved in school activities like sunday school and nothing has really been set up to replace it. So this is one of the areas where children of other backgrounds can get secondary support

@hibbledibble

I said about Traveller children in my first post.

Also Carribean boys and mixed white Carribean have very similar results to White boys on FSM.

I come from a working class background as does DH. We have gotten on quite well, but IME white working class kids are often stereotyped by middle class parents and teachers. It is still acceptable to make fun of someone’s accent, clothes and working class culture- think of Vicky Pollard or Wane and Waynetta slob. It is too easy to dismiss WC kids as not deserving or inherently troubled. Some strategies clearly work- mentoring, focused classroom support (extra resources), and having clear advocacy In the system. However, these solutions require focus and cost money. The challenge is that these kids unnerve the Gurdian reader as much as the readers of the Telegraph.

Its not white working class boys who aren't progressing.

Its white boys who are on FSM, so living in households which are in realtive poverty.

Children from traveller backgrounds have the worst outcomes partly because they are often pulled out of school after primary education. Having said that I have child in secondary that I’m teaching who was so badly let down by primary school that it’s scandalous and I’m certain would have been treated better had they been middle class. There is a serious issue with racism towards travelers across society, not just schools although you would expect a higher standard of tolerance and respect from teaching staff.

Bottom line is that schools are a part of our society and they simply aren’t able to reverse social trends in isolation, however much we want too. Especially with a shoestring budget and what feels like constant criticism.

Schools do specifically monitor the performance of boys and the performance of children from poor backgrounds and are expected to do everything in their power to reduce the gaps,

@hibbledibble

*www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/a-to-c-in-english-and-maths-gcse-attainment-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest*

Here is a link to the statistics, if anyone is interested. I have found it fascinating to learn about this more.

There are quite a few incorrect assertions on this thread. If results are broken down further by ethnicity, Irish and gypsy/Roma travellers have the worst by far, not Black Carribbean.

While travellers are included within the statistics for white children, their small numbers has a small effect on the overall statistics, so it is incorrect to say that poor white boys do relatively well, if it were not for the inclusion of traveller boys.

What is clear is that socioeconomic background has a big effect on educational outcomes for all children, but more so for some ethnicities than others.

One explanation for the relatively good outcomes for children of non white backgrounds, is that they often have access to supplementary education, which has a significant positive effect.

It would be great to have supplementary educational opportunities available for more children.

Just on your last paragraph, supplementary education is all well and good but absolutely pointless to a child if the parent can't be arsed and won't encourage or support the child to attend, or if they can't afford the bus fare.

One explanation for the relatively good outcomes for children of non white backgrounds, is that they often have access to supplementary education, which has a significant positive effect.

Can you explain what you mean, with a specific example, which specifically targets non white children aged 11-16?

It would be great to have supplementary educational opportunities available for more white children.

Fixed that for you.

Funny that the majority think the OP is NBU when teachers and actual professionals on the ground are saying the issue is not overlooked.

Yeah, I mean it's not like there aren't any bestselling educational books on it or anything.

Oh... wait...

*Can you explain what you mean, with a specific example, which specifically targets non white children aged 11-16?

It would be great to have supplementary educational opportunities available for more white children*

Mosque or Synagogue spring instantly to mind. Of course white children can attend if they practice that religion or want to learn. There is also Bible study for some Christian denominations,

Supplementary education opportunities, with statistics, is specifically mentioned in the government analysis (link above). This is objective, not subjective.

Many communities, particularly recent immigrant ones, have supplementary education for their children, for example Chinese Saturday school.

I'm in inner city deprived London and holiday schemes where poor children get free meals are very well attended. Education could easily be incorporated into this, for example.

Holiday schemes incorporating education will result in less attendance, fgs are poor children allowed no respite, fun?

@Neurodiversitydoctor

*Can you explain what you mean, with a specific example, which specifically targets non white children aged 11-16?

It would be great to have supplementary educational opportunities available for more white children*

Mosque or Synagogue spring instantly to mind. Of course white children can attend if they practice that religion or want to learn. There is also Bible study for some Christian denominations,

Yes but these schemes are set up by the communities themselves. You sound like those people that bemoan the lack of refuges for males. Refuges were set up by women because there was NOTHING to save them from abuse.

Nope. Not examples. That is not an example of a government funded initiative which prioritises communities which is what you are claiming.

Religion is not what we are talking about here.

The holiday schemes in London are not targeting particular ethnic groups. There are holiday schemes in , eg, Blackpool and Great Yarmouth.

What you appear to be saying is that non white cmmunities have gained an educational/social advantage (the non FSM stats really do not bear this out!) over white communities and that something seems to be being withheld from white boys.

There is a dire lack of funding of anything outside of London tbh.

Supplementary education opportunities, with statistics, is specifically mentioned in the government analysis (link above)

Where?

Also, the stats divide FSM from non FSM by ethnicity but not by ethnicity and gender so that info isn't available there. Girls do outperform boys so certainly FSM white boys (which will include GRT/white other and White Irish at times) will perform poorly but so also do mixed white/Caribbean and Black Caribbean boys. Aggregating and then disaggregating groups as it suits is a government fashion at the moment.

There are pockets of huge underperformance (Bangladeshi and GRT traveller girls are also noteworthy). Many of the issues are systemic. The government wants us to looks the other way on any issues which suggest race is a factor in any long term life chances, educational opportunity and achievement . This is allowing people to somehow frame white male FSM underachievement as something to do with being white - as if other communities are somehow getting handouts, and this can fuel racist ideologies, and racist organisations thrive on it. It's not a helpful discourse as many scholars from across the academic and political spectrums pointed out.

The whole reason the government bleats on about working class white boys is

a) to misrepresent the group and make people think that most British kids are not being given a fair go in favour of migrants. Stir the pot.

b) It means not having to do anyting about other racial inequalities. If you can bleat "working class white boys" to every other systemic problem.

Put it this way, I've been involved in schemes for working class kids that help them achieve and get access to higher education. You don't have to be of a certain race to participate. The entire time I've been involved in these schemes we've had 3 white boys participate and one was Eastern European. White working class British boys do not give a fuck about their education. I've been in classrooms and seen them interrupt teachers over and over again, start tantrums and overall get pandered to by the teachers because they're trying to prioritise them.

@mediciempire

This would be the "failure to engage with the curriculum" noted in the report.

Although again, we need to stop using "working class British boys". 65 % of Brits consider themselves working class.

Its a very different thing when you say white boys living in relative poverty in deindustrialised and coastal areas ( becaue attainment of FSM kids in London is far higher than average).

I think the experience in London is worth discussion. London Challenge was very successful and the capital is much better funded than much of the UK although the cost of staffing in London is likely to be significantly higher than elsewhere.

London Challenge was mainly focused on getting the right people in the right places as I understand and it was a long term project over several years so that new practices had a chance to bed in. I’ve visited Lampton School and worked with a guy who was SEN advisor to LC, whose name escapes me. This was arranged by my academy chain to improve provision at my failing school in Hants. But my SLT at my school didn’t buy in, weren’t supportive and expected a magic fix. Lampton is great because it’s well funded, has good teachers who are committed to inclusive education and a senior team who are supportive, they also have a diverse catchment and lots of parents who are committed to supporting their kids. It is possible to recreate this elsewhere, but it needs real strong leadership, funding and great teachers, which given the government have missed their recruitment targets for 8 years now, is increasingly a challenge. In London there are also more services set up because councils have more money. For example I’m now at a large school in Hants, probably similar size to Lampton, they have 6 days EP provision a year, I get 3 days. They had a Speech and language therapist in once a week, I get a termly visit, and no language support for anyone without an EHCP.

We do better than average for pupil premium and are seen as the best school in the area for mainstream SEN provision, but the structure of the curriculum makes it difficult to support children with high needs, especially those who aren’t capable of getting GCSEs for whatever reason.

Again I really don’t think schools can do anything significant without wider support to reduce poverty and inequality.

Poor white boys ruled my classes. I wasn't academic, but I was willing to learn..

I was typically put in the dimmest of classes for English & Maths. I remember being taken out of the "normal" classes and being put with the "thick" kids.

It became obvious that the poor white boys in the back would interrupt the teacher all the time - the teacher would give up teaching the small handful (like me) because the white boys on the back row would interrupt and be silly the whole through the class.

Meaning the ones like me that actually wanted to learn - didn't.

I'm not stupid, but I struggled to catch on as quick as my peers which is why I was in the dim person class.

Poor white boys seemed to rule the classroom and the teachers -

And now, I am a millionaire (in assets), steady income, whereas the poor white boys at the back are still poor white boys.. wish I had a better start and a voice in high school so I was able to get out of the dreadful thick people class!

I had no university education as I didn't get the grades for 6th form that I desperately wanted to attend, I just worked really hard in crappy jobs.

All good now, but hated my education. I am GCSE results year 2009.

I agree about your final point and about the London challenge. It was supposed to be a model for how to improve schools across the country but funding got cut with austerity (although it probably cost less than the academies program).

I did the sums once for the extra funding though, I found that a an NQT in inner London costs about 25 (off the top of my head) percent more than anywhere else. Management scales and such are about the same, but everything costs more from cleaners to services.

When these things are factored, plus inner London (and all London boroughs) havjbg more than double the PP and EAL students, the difference in funding is insignificant.

The Londob challenge had its impact but it hasn't been funded for years.

@JohnHuffam1812

The whole reason the government bleats on about working class white boys is

a) to misrepresent the group and make people think that most British kids are not being given a fair go in favour of migrants. Stir the pot.

b) It means not having to do anyting about other racial inequalities. If you can bleat "working class white boys" to every other systemic problem.

I have not seen any Government minister bleating on about working class boys. There is an Education Select Committee from this year which makes a number of good points and recommendations. It can be found here:committees.parliament.uk/committee/203/education-committee/news/156024/forgotten-white-workingclass-pupils-let-down-by-decades-of-neglect-mps-say/

As a select Committee it includes MPs from all parties. The point the report makes is that historically there has been a limited focus on this demographic and as a a consequence, outcomes are poor. This should not be portrayed as a racist issue. It simply is not.