Do you think it’s true that ‘bright children do well anywhere’?

[Angelsandchanges]

I’m not sure it is. I read this a lot on here.

I think bright children may do ‘OK’, in the sense they may pass their GCSEs but I don’t think they necessarily have the optimum school experience and I don’t think they always reach their potential.

I think gifted children do, but there’s a world of difference between gifted and bright. What do others think? I’m asking because I’m wondering whether to opt for private or state.

I believe the dandelion and orchid theory.

www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-march-21-2019-1.5065533/is-your-child-an-orchid-or-dandelion-how-one-expert-s-theory-can-help-us-raise-better-people-1.5065534

Bright children do best when they're happy and settled. Where does your child want to go?

That said I'd also look at the league tables and see how good the state school is. If it's a good school and my child wanted to go there I'd have no qualms.

I think they do best when they have peers of a similar ability to them. DD went to a preschool with lots of children with children working in a highly specialised field... the expectations were extremely high of these children and she flourished there. Downshifted the next few years in average Primaries. Now is back in a class with children of professional parents and the level of the work she is producing has leapt forward. This same school has also shown massive understanding of her elder sisters SEN and she has progressed massively as well.

It also helps when being above others in the class that you get given extra or higher level work as opposed to just being used ti teach stuff u already know to someone else.

I dont care what apparent benefits that's supoosed to have it didn't help me. Merely gave the teacher the opportunity to catch everyone else up instead.

There were times I had to beg for extra work because I'd already finished the book. There was a degree of trying to keep everyone on the same level as opposed to teavhing to ability

No. A bright child who has the potential for top grades can only really get them if they have access to the right teaching and educational content. A lot easier now than previously with YouTube and the internet, but your DC would need to be very self motivated. If your school has a higher teacher turnover or a disruptive class which means they get through the curriculum at a slower pace, then your child may not be given the opportunity to fulfil their potential.

I think gifted children can have a more difficult time than bright children.
My DB and I lived on a massive council estate, passed out 11 plus without all the coaching that goes on now and both did academically well.
My DC went to the local comprehensive school and also have done really well. They went to good unis and now have good careers.

No, it's not true at all. It takes no account of the standard of the school, the teachers, peer group, bullying etc.

I left primary a straight A* pupil to go to the local comp. I left after 5 years without a single pass mark at GCSE. That was down to intensive/serious bullying on a daily basis, not just verbal, but also physical, including being punched and kicked, burned with fag ends, etc., and theft of property, i.e. my school bag, money, coat, etc. I reported it to the form teacher, then when he did nothing, the head of year, who also did nothing. I was constantly told to fight back, avoid them, etc. That's hard when the teachers kept pairing me up and putting me into groups with them (the worst offenders were next to me alphabetically and most teachers lazily set seating plans/groups etc by alphabetic order), so I simply couldn't avoid them! I used to hide at breaks and lunchtimes so they couldn't find me.

I finally escaped aged 16, and went to college to get my GCSEs and A levels, which I passed with good grades, and then went on to a professional masters qualification, again passed with high marks. I'm now a qualified professional.

My "education" only started once I'd left the hell hole of the comp. I was lucky that I was able to get my GCSEs and A levels which led to a minimum wage job in a tiny father/son accountancy practice where I worked my way up, studying evenings and weekends.

So, no, "bright" children don't do well "anywhere". If they are unlucky enough to find themselves in a crap school with teachers who don't give a toss, they're going to struggle.

Yes, I think they can.

But I also think it still relies on a bright child willing to put the effort in.

2 out of 3 of my kids will go to a secondary school that has been less than favourable in recent years. My eldest is currently in one of the highest performing secondaries in the country.

We had to move out of catchment so the other two wont go there. But, I'm confident in their abilities and will still do well as long as they put the work in. Which is questionable with DS, but I know DD would excel anywhere.

Have a look at the staff room board on this forum and you can read how challenging and stretched teachers are now. Do you think they have the capacity to go over and beyond just for a bright child? I don’t think so in most circumstances even though I assume most teachers would love to. They also don’t mark a lot of work so individualised feedback is limited. These are the types of constraints that will stop a bright child a grieving maximum potential in the state system. Grammars are different as are state schools in wealthy areas

I think although many children will be fine in any school, all children will do better in a better school

My sense, and this is just my personal view, is that 80% of bright kids will do well anywhere, with the right support from home.

But I think there will always be some that for various reasons won’t always flourish in certain environments. I’m sure most of us remember at least a couple of kids from school who were bright but just messed around. I don’t think that would be tolerated in the same way in a private school.

I also think that some bright kids are more at risk of getting in with the wrong crowd at a state school.

For transparency, I went to state schools and performed exceptionally well at GCSE and mixed at A level. Enough to get into a Russell Group and I went on to get a first. I think the hiccup at A level came because I was poorly advised on my a level choices. I worked incredibly hard but just wasn’t good enough at sciences at A level to get good grades. I do wonder if a private school would have advised me against them.

I was a bright kid who under achieved because of uncontrolled bullies whose favourite target were swots.

Yep, exactly the same. With hindsight, the teachers should have done way more to protect the bright kids in mixed ability groups. Unsurprisingly, I absolutely excelled in the classes that were setted, where I didn’t feel nervous about raising my hand or didn’t fear being attacked. It has made me wary about my own children and we have recently moved house due to the poor secondary options where we used to be.

Most state schools cater for the majority of middle of the road kids. The bright ones tend to get left to they own devices as they’re going to do well anyway. But - they could do so much better with teaching that is targeted to ensure they succeed.

Poverty of aspiration is a huge issue in the UK. If I go back to my home town, the bullies still work in the local supermarket. They have done nothing with their lives. One had a child with the local drug dealer. I don’t feel sympathy. They were nasty then and will always be nasty.

Yes I do think they do, once they have good parents behind them and don't go off on the wrong track socially. My school was a real mixed bag. In a really rough area but children from all backgrounds attended. The bright girls (all girls school) excelled despite the constant dramas and interruptions of the more "spirited" pupils. Some are very successful women now in business, the arts and the professions - some are in prison!

Good parenting and high expectations at home are the key IMO. We grew up in poverty with an alcoholic father and neither of my parents finished school so the odds were stacked against us. However, I had an excellent mother who set the bar high for us and so going to university was never presented as a choice - it was a given. With that mindset ingrained we grew up accordingly. That's why I have very little time for people in my country who bemoan their shitty circumstances holding them back. It's their attitude.

I dont think they do. I used to believe this but my children went to a requires improvement junior school and ofsted flagged up safeguarding and SEN support as a major issue. my NT bright child was assualted on school premises (headlock and kicked repeatedly) and that put him off learning.I suppose ultimatley it wont impact on his gcse results but they arent the whole child. I think this statement very much depends what is wrong with the school in question. If its one that coasts on the back of its large middle class intake supporting the children, your child will be fine. If its really crap and your child isnt safe it might not be..

Any child does well if they have decent parents and a supportive school. Not all state schools are slums, some are actually very good. You obviously need to shop around for schools so to speak, don’t just send them to the nearest one. I sent my DS to one a mile further away than the closest because I preferred it and he loves it.

@user1497207191 - sounds familiar. It’s disgusting that that was allowed to happen to you. I wonder if there is any retrospective action that can be taken against schools that failed to safeguard pupils so badly - there really ought to be. I’ve been tempted to contact my old school a number of times and ask for both an explanation and an apology for what happened to me.

I don’t think they always reach their potential

This is so often to mean "goes to Oxford and becomes a doctor/lawyer", which is possible for anyone who is bright, but of course isn't necessarily the goal of those kids, but it is the goal of parents and teachers of certain institutions and the self fulfillingness of that means "good school" has come to mean gets the students to Oxbridge., rather than what is best for the individual (and fits with their personal goals)

So the definition of good, is one of the problems here.

The real question is probably, can a bad school experience prevent a bright child achieving what they want (reaching their potential is garbage, that's always defined by others, and that's not what you really want of your children) The answer is surely yes, but that bad experience isn't necessarily just coming from certain schools, you can have a bad experience in the highest rated school if it's not right for you / fall into the wrong frame of bullying.

It may be a higher chance of that bad experience in particular sort of "sink" secondary schools, but plenty of "ordinary" schools will be able to provide the opportunities, and there's no reason to assume another would be better.

Of course, if all you want is your child to be a lawyer so you can boast about them with the golf club wives...

No. It's a lie.

I'm a teacher and wrote my last module for my EdD looking at how bright children from low socioeconomic backgrounds are locked out of accessing top unis through the school they attend.

It's complex, there's a myriad of reasons.... teacher turnover, content taught, subjects on offer and levels taught, impact of teaching quality, impact of friends etc.... all impact on students' ability to do well.

In the same dilemma, but we’re already in private school and thinking about moving to a state school. My son is part of the gifted & talented scheme at his school presently, but we’re thinking it might be better to save the money we’d spend on private school and keep it aside for the future for him (house, car etc) and that he might have more enjoyable teenage years if he’s not subjected to the high pressure which will inevitably occur at the private school.

I went to a reasonably good state school and am an Oxbridge graduate; meanwhile, my sister attended a top private school and ended up going through clearing to get a university place having not achieved the grades she’d hoped for. That being said, I didn’t enjoy university that much owing to the high pressure, and she had a great time. It’s so difficult knowing what to do for the best.

I was very bright as a child, went to comp and boom, it all went wrong after about 3rd form. The school was awful, being clever was not "cool". Soon I was smoking, bunking off, trying to fit in. Of course I was still bright, but hid it well.
I didn't do 6th form, and didn't end up getting a degree until I was 28.
I really wish my parents had given it much more consideration and bussed me out, rather than thinking the local comp would do.

That's why I have very little time for people in my country who bemoan their shitty circumstances holding them back. It's their attitude

Thats easy to say as an adult though. Nit so much when you are 10, have no friends and the teacher only knows u exist when they need someone to be a living dictionary to someone they cay be bothered to teach how to spell any more.

Not all state schools are slums, some are actually very good. You obviously need to shop around for schools so to speak, don’t just send them to the nearest one. I sent my DS to one a mile further away than the closest because I preferred it and he loves it

Lucky you fir not living in an area where between faith schools and grammar schools the locals have to fight between the crap crapper and crapperer thats left.

Good luck getting into the out if town schools. That's not gonna happen.

Of course not. Unless you truly believe the upper classes are so much cleverer than the rest of us, then factors other than brightness are at play. The experience of the last two years has surely shown us that not all schools are equal, or give equal access to even the most basic elements of an education .

Well, yes. Their best? No.

I went to a very average school that very quickly dropped into special measures a couple of years after I left.

I did fine: good A Levels, nice friends, Russell Group uni and now professional career. I was encouraged not to apply to Oxbridge. I wish I hadn't listened. Not saying it would have been the best place for me at that age, but that I wished I'd at least given it a shot. That has stayed with me ever since, that I'll never know...

But I don't really believe in private education either and won't be sending my children private at secondary age (can't afford to anyway).

Home life and encouragement matters more than anything else, but school culture does make a difference

I went to Oxbridge from an ofsted inadequate comp. What I think is the key thing for doing well is not being bright but being driven.

There's a really gentle balance to be struck. I know of bright people who went to state schools and have great self esteem because they were the cleverest. And equally bright people who went to selective private schools and grammars and have low confidence because they were just one of many clever people, maybe one of the less good ones. It's very difficult to find exactly the right environment