To really not understand what I’m getting so wrong.

[thegreenlight]

Having had a horrific experience with primary with DS and his behaviour at school it is now repeating itself with my youngest DS so it must be me. Eldest DS has had behaviour issues (making noises, stimming, not listening, not completing work, no friends) all through infants - his behaviour has always been good at home and when out at museums or other days out.

He’s fiercely intelligent and knew the periodic table by heart at the age of 5 but has never really fulfilled his potential at school and is very emotionally immature. Now he’s in juniors it is slightly better but not much.

Youngest started reception this year. August 30th birthday and again I’m having to go in after school to speak to the teacher about his behaviour. He has speech and language issues and has been very hitty and defiant.

I’m a teacher and I see how different their behaviour is to others - they have never been compliant at school and every play or event is fraught and stressful. I saw the recording of the nativity and DS2 is sat with a teacher at the back with a fiddle toy (just like DS1 was).

I try so hard - we remember all school events, we try to make weekends enriching and exciting, we have high expectations of behaviours but school seems so difficult for them compared to others. It’s making me think I’m just a bad parent who’s missing something everyone else seems to do that has cause both our children to have issues.

"Assessed by infants" Do you mean school decided he wasnt autistic or he was referred and a qualified paediatritin decided.

It does so much harm to a child to be labelled as "naughty" when their behaviours are just them trying to cope. They blatently need some different strategies.

if ds2 has speech and language issues, then i would immediately not be surprised to see that he is 'babyish' reactive and hits.

We forget how much of everything depends on communication, if he is not able to communicate his need effectively, then he is living with daily high frustration levels, which leads to a short fuse.

How bad is his speech? I woudl concentrate here for the moment. Does he use signs? Does he use a communication book (forgotten the name, is it PECS?) Does anyone in his classroom take time to sit with him and understand when something goes wrong?

Sorry cross post!

My ds is both Austria seeking and avoidant.

He's also autistic!

You've had bad feedback from professionals by the sound of it.

Plus they can both be vastly different yet both still autistic.

Autism was what I was thinking as I read OP and o think in your heart of hearts you also think this and wanted opinions to start the fight again?

Your eldest is probably able to mask in other environments, but is finding the school environment and expectations too much. Allowing him to leave obviously allows him to calm himself and removes the 'problem' for the class teacher, but isn't helping him fulfill his potential.

Immaturity and aggression can definitely be signs of autism. If he feels overwhelmed and unable to communicate then hitting out are his way of expressing that.

My kids are both v different to ea h other. One is diagnosed autistic and pretty sure the other is. Both very bright capable children but with their difficulties/quirks.

I see so many kids go down the "behaviour plan" route when really their needs need accommodating.

Have you resd "explosive child" by ross greene. It's brilliant and a dofferent way to look at things, and applies regardless of diagnosis.

It doesn't sound like a very good school OP.

Is there scope to move them?

I hadn’t considered autism for youngest - he’s very social and emotionally astute and not at all like DS1. DS1 had an external assessment buy nothing came of it and they went back to saying it was a behaviour problem which was heartbreaking. I hate primary school - it’s been such a struggle and DS1’s self esteem has been destroyed by it. I just can’t stand the thought of it happening to DS2.

DS1 was assessed by infants and nothing came of it

Who did this assessment? If you mean the school did it, that is completely irrelevant. Children can only be diagnosed with either autism or ADHD by a doctor, although the assessment is usually multi-disciplinary. Lots of autistic children present differently in different contexts, diagnosis would not be dismissed out of hand for that. Lots of autistic children have both sensory seeking and avoidant behaviours too.

Have you looked up the referral pathway in your area? They do vary, but it should be online- it's usually outlined as part of the 'local offer'.

Sorry, cross post there.

You can be social and emotionally astute and autistic. My duaghter scored really highly on the "empathy" questionairre.

But that's an aside is there anyway you can change school? All behaviour is communication and as you know sendcos should be treating the child as they are without any need for a label.

Events and days off time table are often tricky for kids who like routine/dont like noise/unpredicatbility or crowds. And struggling at school when home is "safe" or geared to their needs isn't uncommon either.

'DS1 has been assessed but as he doesn’t show the same behaviours in different environments nothing has come of it.'

'DS1 was assessed by infants and nothing came of it (apparently being both auditory avoiding and seeking means he isn’t diagnosable)'

OP, who assessed your oldest DS? Did he go through an actual multidisciplinary assessment (somewhere like CAMHS or a child development center?) Or did school do their own observations and conclude no neurodiversity?
I ask because both of the above statements are completely untrue. Children on the spectrum can absolutely display different behaviours in different environments, and children can absolutely be sensory seeking and avoidant in the same area. Ie a child may be desperate to continuously blow a playground whistle, but loathe the noise of the hoover, cover ears etc.

@thegreenlight

DS1 has been assessed but as he doesn’t show the same behaviours in different environments nothing has come of it. We are looking at a private diagnosis (I was thinking maybe ADHD inattentive) but juniors just seem to think that letting him leave lessons is the answer and his attainment has plummeted. Last years teacher was amazing (and he responded brilliantly to home schooling) so we though he was doing well but this year the teacher is awful. We have spoken to the head about it not being ‘naughty’ behaviour in a preemptive meeting but things have not improved for him.

I’m just so tired at the thought of going through it again with DS2 (who shows NO symptoms of autism at all but is just very hitty and babyish).

I have been wrestling with this for years - please don’t bring my professional behaviours and knowledge into question.

I have to say your post really resonated with me - I my eldest lad, lovely, do anything for anyone, no behaviour issues at home, nothing! BUT I spent so much time in his schools over the years it was like once he was at school he was a totally different person! Eventually he was diagnosed with ADHD Inattentive type and everything made sense! Then my youngest, again lovely happy lad until he went to school and the problems started again but slightly different. He was diagnosed with ADD and we were really lucky that we had the best support from school and teachers and CAMHS I really would suggest getting them both assessed again, by someone who specialises in ADD/ADHD and wish you the very best x

School sets kids up for failure, the majority will try and fit into the ridgid boxes, but so unrealistic to expect them all to conform in the same way, and very limiting.
The school enviroment wont be a place where your children can ever thrive, its too restricting.
Shame you can' t home school them yourself, or find somewhere else more suitable.
Don ' t ever blame yourself, all children are unique and rightly so.

I can't help thinking that ds1 must have been bored rigid at infants if he already knew his periodic table. That might have been the cause of the "behaviour problems". The school does not sound supportive, is there any possibility of moving schools for your ds2, and/or getting a private assessment?

Headline news for some on MN. Teachers are not trained in how to diagnose children, just encourage s to highlight behaviour that stands out.

Unfortunately the approach that CaHMs take really does lay it on thick that it is your parenting but that is because ALL early interventions focus on the home environment and how to try to avoid or minimise problem behaviour. Leading those looking for a 'blame' to blame parents. Flag up all the behaviour you can. At the end of the day there is no support for bright but uncooperative children though and you will need to find things (fidget toys, weighted blankets, etc etc) that help keep things so your child can feel a sense of control and calm.

It sounds like the problem is school. If they behaved like this at home but not at school (which some children do - masking) the school would be saying it was a parenting problem. As it is they behave well at home but can't cope at school, so I would be turning back to them and saying what are they going to do to solve their schooling problem?

I think I would push for further assessment for both children. Your younger son's hitting could be ASD related but it could also be frustration from the speech and language delay, or could be something completely different like Developmental Language Disorder which is apparently 5 times more common than autism and can cause difficulties with behaviour / emotional regulation.

I wonder whether you and your partner are also neurodivergent in some way - if your entire household is ND-friendly that could explain why the boys are more regulated at home. You're obviously not a bad mother if they are able to cope at home!

@thegreenlight

DS1 has been assessed but as he doesn’t show the same behaviours in different environments nothing has come of it. We are looking at a private diagnosis (I was thinking maybe ADHD inattentive) but juniors just seem to think that letting him leave lessons is the answer and his attainment has plummeted. Last years teacher was amazing (and he responded brilliantly to home schooling) so we though he was doing well but this year the teacher is awful. We have spoken to the head about it not being ‘naughty’ behaviour in a preemptive meeting but things have not improved for him.

I’m just so tired at the thought of going through it again with DS2 (who shows NO symptoms of autism at all but is just very hitty and babyish).

I have been wrestling with this for years - please don’t bring my professional behaviours and knowledge into question.

He may not be showing the same behaviours in different settings because he feels safe in some and not others, but I'm sure you know this.
It's so frustrating and upsetting to have to fight so hard on behalf of your kids. Xx

To echo other posters who did the assessments?
It sounds as if your children have fairly complex and inconsistent profiles which borrow a little from one 'diagnosis', a little from another etc so it means that they don't fit into a standard box for diagnosis. School then attach the 'naughty' label and it's so hard to undo that damage in kids.
Have they been referred to the multi-disciplinary team by the GP? From what you've written, it seems like this is the next step (if you haven't already gone down this road). It could be they need to be assessed and observed by (at minimum) educational psychologist and SLT both at home and school and for the dots to be joined up by professionals who see the whole picture, rather than just a part of it.
And for what it's worth, its nonsense that kids can't have ASD if they present differently at school and at home. Difficulty adapting to new routines, situations, people and expectations is a often a fundamental difficulty.

Last years teacher was amazing (and he responded brilliantly to home schooling) so we though he was doing well but this year the teacher is awful

You said this OP. So he can and does thrive in school in the right circumstances. The trouble with primary school is that if a teacher can't find a way of relating to a child, then that child can fail.

You need someone to do an intensive behaviour observation of him. When does he succeed? When does he comply with instructions? What adults does he respond to? Why is that - what are they doing? What impact do his peers have on him (and vice versa). What are the differences in his responses to activities / times of the day/ subjects / peer groups? How does he manage transitions? Do breaks settle him or are they a trigger for him?

Vanishingly few children's behaviour is "dreadful "everywhere. It's just that teachers get forget to stand back and analyse - look for the situations where he thrives and create more of them for him.

I can't stress enough that this should be a baseline for schools to do where a child is struggling.

Thankyou all - I think it’s me that is ND. DH has to do big fake smile as I instantly think his resting face is unhappy with me! I think my underlying anxiety due to never quite ‘getting’ things has led me to think that my parenting must be lacking. They just aren’t ‘compliant’ which seems to be the gold standard at their school. DH is now concerned about a diagnosis as the school’s main strategy seems to be putting DS1 in nurture groups (with genuinely unpleasant children who do not set a good example) and letting him leave the class resulting in him not achieving as well as he always has, especially in maths and now he doesn’t like maths either! He doesn’t want DS to fall behind because they have lowered their expectations of how he will contribute in lessons and complete work.

DS2 is very charming and aware so this is unknown territory for me!

Some kids love school, some tolerate it, others hate it. Maybe they hate it. Unfortunately it’s just something they have to do, have you asked them if they like school and why they play up?

Everyone loves to label dc based on your post, it’s ridiculous the tone of some of these posts.

Some dc don’t they’ve in a typical education setting so I’d be identifying the areas they struggle to conform and start building coping mechanisms. Children are wired differently so I’d be looking to the teacher to help too. They aren’t just going to change their personality over night because it’s easier for the teacher.

thrive not they’ve

It sounds like the school they’re at isn’t the best at meeting their needs.

Alternative schools nearby?