The UK are not just southern England - in defence of Santa

[MajorCarolDanvers]

Week and week, day after day there is thread after thread complaining that we "Brits" don't all speak the same way and are falling prey to evil American influences.

Patiently, on each every thread, people from Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and Northern England explain that we have different accents, dialects and cultural identities.

We are told we are lazy, coarse, uneducated and American.

So for all those who say Santa, Guising, Outwith, Mom, Mam, or drop your Ts or your 'ings' or roll your Rs and whatever else it is that JARS and GRATES on delicate southern ears I celebrate you.

YABU - learn to speak RP like a proper Brit
YANBU - there is more to UK than the south of England

@CluelessinCumbria

There is a lot of anti-Scottish and anti-Irish feeling on here. Supposedly educated people use terms like "southern Ireland" a lot. People give advice based on their experience in the south of England and won't accept that different systems and laws may apply elsewhere.

Middle class shibboleths don't seem to be such a thing in Scotland. You can use a word or phrase that betrays your regional or working class roots and it doesn't seem to be taken and used as evidence that you're not "people like us". These words and phrases add to the richness of our language. In certain areas of England they're trip wires.

Who supposes they're educated? I don't. Seriously, though, there's a lot more anti-English sniping here and a bit of roping in of Ireland with Scotland as a counter against supposed English presumption. On reading the opening post I had a strong sense of deja vu and wondered about the thread's purpose. We've just recently had a similar thread about the use and origin of words and the American influence on our language.

You know I haven't seen those threads you talk about.
However week after week, day after day, there are threads complaining about the South of England in various forms.

I'd also say that having lived up north (where we always used Father Christmas BTW) with a Southern accent, and down south with a northern accent (yes, my accent did change), that the people I came into contact with in the South were far more tolerant than the North.
Most I've ever had in the South is asking what part of the North I'm from, but in the North, you get called posh and, no it isn't in a jokey way either. Never had anyone from the South pretending not to understand when I ask for a glass of water either.

Firstly, RP isn’t an accent. Secondly the south east is a region too so those talking about regional accents, we have them here too (and they’re not RP!)

If you want to hate London (financials, Government etc, you go right ahead but please, for fuck’s sake, stop with all this digging out of people from London and the South East. No, we don’t think we’re superior, no, we’ve never said it, no we don’t mock people from elsewhere any more than they do us, no, we’re not living the high life whilst everyone around us struggles. We’re the same as fucking all of you, we just happened to be born in the south east of England. It’s beyond tiring and irritating.

I'd also say that having lived up north (where we always used Father Christmas BTW)

How far north was this?

Aberdeen?
Thurso?
Kirkwall?

Why is everyone so against saying something American anyway. I love our American friends and am happy to adopt some of their words and customs.

@PartyPrawnRingGames

Why is everyone so against saying something American anyway. I love our American friends and am happy to adopt some of their words and customs.

Well quite. People seem to be quite territorial. Local words for local people!

@PartyPrawnRingGames

Why is everyone so against saying something American anyway. I love our American friends and am happy to adopt some of their words and customs.

Me too.

One of the lovely things about English is that there are many versions of it, both in the U.K. and all over the world. It changes and evolves.

One of the lovely things about the UK is that English isn't the only language we speak. Siôn Corn for the win!

It was Santa where I grew up in Scotland, so my kids were told it was Santa too.
Only heard him called Father Christmas when I lived in England.

For anyone that reckons all Sussex folk speak la-di-dah posh, here's an example of my native dialect.
www.bl.uk/collection-items/sussex-accent-leslie-school-days-early-working-life

Another midlander here, have always used Father Christmas and mom

Just picking up on the original post and the word outwith, it’s a great word which I use a lot and it was only fairly recently I learned that it was a Scottish word!

Also, it was always Santa here and would assume it came from trade links given that a few of our words come from the Netherlands, such as Kirk.

It riles me too OP. I'm in NE England and England is often assumed to be the SE. It happens so often here, despite denials.
Whereas culturally and linguistically I feel closer to Scotland, I am English so don't feel I have that strong identity on English matters. It has been Santy/Santa here for more than a century at the very least from my family experience, nothing to do with America. I object to being told it's American or asked what's wrong with it being American or adopting their words. It's English/Geordie and that's my identity and heritage, that's why, it's mine not just theirs.

I'm so very indifferent to this FC/SC angst.

Who actually really cares? Outside of Mumsnet I've never heard it be an issue.

In my head he's both names anyway.

I guess if I had to decipher it it makes sense to me that - his name is "Santa Claus" but his role is Father Christmas.

Everyone knows who you mean if you say either so who gives a shit.

But then I'm one of those awful cockneys. (Let's ignore my masters degree, my accent alone means that now I live in a Naice suburb half the school mums think I'm thick as shit.)

@JulieGoods

I'm so very indifferent to this FC/SC angst.

Who actually really cares? Outside of Mumsnet I've never heard it be an issue.

In my head he's both names anyway.

I guess if I had to decipher it it makes sense to me that - his name is "Santa Claus" but his role is Father Christmas.

Everyone knows who you mean if you say either so who gives a shit.

But then I'm one of those awful cockneys. (Let's ignore my masters degree, my accent alone means that now I live in a Naice suburb half the school mums think I'm thick as shit.)

Yes, south east here and we’ve use Santa and Father Christmas. Not sure it matters does it. I don’t ever say one of them and worry about whether I’ve said the correct name for the area I live in. (Which is apparently going to be RP or cockney sparra according to those with the knowledge!) it’s neither but whatever. I can’t get territorial or spend any time worrying about elsewhere in the country and what words they own.😂

@MargaretThursday

You know I haven't seen those threads you talk about. However week after week, day after day, there are threads complaining about the South of England in various forms.

I'd also say that having lived up north (where we always used Father Christmas BTW) with a Southern accent, and down south with a northern accent (yes, my accent did change), that the people I came into contact with in the South were far more tolerant than the North.
Most I've ever had in the South is asking what part of the North I'm from, but in the North, you get called posh and, no it isn't in a jokey way either. Never had anyone from the South pretending not to understand when I ask for a glass of water either.

That rang a bell. My (southern) dd2 who went to a northern university endured what almost amounted to bullying from a couple of fellow female students with good old northern chips on their shoulders, who accused her of poshness because of her RP accent, not to mention (sneeringly) of having parents with a big house and loadsamoney. Neither of which was true.

TBH it was pathetic, though I’d encountered similar before - a good old northern shoulder-chip insisting that everyone from the south was a horrible snob - and this was in an expat community in the Middle East! Ms Chip was actually a friend of ours, so more than once I asked her whether she thought dh and I were snobs.
No!
Well, then.
But her chip remained, permanently glued.

*and this was a RG university, so they were evidently intelligent girls, but so ridiculously prejudiced.

Fabulous point 😄😄

Mind you @GETTING, I am from the west country and was always being accused of being posh for not having the accent (I had northern parents so never developed one). I am an outsider even in my home town

Some interesting research on the use of Father Christmas and Santa Claus:
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/12/06/it-father-christmas-or-santa-claus

I personally loathe the way people who are not from the south east seem to think that the people there are one homogeneous group. We speak different dialects, have different words, most importantly we live different lives. If you wouldn't happily proclaim that all Asians are the same as each other, please don't extend the same offensive attitude to those in a different region of the country to you.

And in defence of my comment on Santa being an Americanism, this is from Wikipedia:

"The popular American myth of Santa Claus arrived in England in the 1850s"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Christmas

I’ve put YABU as you have lumped the South West in with the South East. I’m from Bristol and we drop out T’s and roll out R’s and regularly get made fun of.

[quote Plantstrees]And in defence of my comment on Santa being an Americanism, this is from Wikipedia:

"The popular American myth of Santa Claus arrived in England in the 1850s"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Christmas[/quote]
Yes in England but the UK is more than England. 🙈

Scotland traditionally had strong religious, cultural and commercial links with the Netherlands. I would think that’s where the Scottish tradition of ‘Santa’ heralds from. It certainly predates the influence of American tv and culture - it’s been Santa in most of Scotland for far longer than that influence has existed.

Should also add, if people are very concerned about Americanisms they should ditch the whole idea of a kindly arctic dweller who brings presents, since those things are characteristics of the American Santa Claus and not the English Father Christmas.