The UK are not just southern England - in defence of Santa

[MajorCarolDanvers]

Week and week, day after day there is thread after thread complaining that we "Brits" don't all speak the same way and are falling prey to evil American influences.

Patiently, on each every thread, people from Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and Northern England explain that we have different accents, dialects and cultural identities.

We are told we are lazy, coarse, uneducated and American.

So for all those who say Santa, Guising, Outwith, Mom, Mam, or drop your Ts or your 'ings' or roll your Rs and whatever else it is that JARS and GRATES on delicate southern ears I celebrate you.

YABU - learn to speak RP like a proper Brit
YANBU - there is more to UK than the south of England

@Mochudubh

For those questioning Scotland's links to the Low Countries:

dundeescottishculture.org/news/scotland-and-the-low-countries/

From the article "Scots is thrang wi Dutch words frae the Flemish migration".

Though I admit it doesn't specifically mention Santa.

Agree and also this

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/entertainment/tv-film/2071663/scotlands-centuries-old-links-with-the-flemish-and-dutch-people-celebrated-in-new-billy-kay-documentaries/

Its been Santa and Santy in other parts of the UK since before the advent of TV and Film.

I wasn't speaking specifically about Santa though, it's general observation about how Americanisms have infiltrated and influenced people's choice of words.

I am from the SE, grew up saying Father Christmas but chose to use Santa with my DC as it's easier for a toddler to say and because of the prevalence of 'Santa'.

YABU as there is no such thing as the 'southern' accent. I have a friend that talks like Amy Winehouse and a friend that talks like Mary Poppins!

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

Off topic but why do you need to buy a card with the familial relationship of the recipient printed on it? Don’t they know who they are?

I don't need to. My family get cards from the same pack as everyone else but DH's family all send each other "Dear Son and Daughter-in-law" "Dear Auntie and Uncle" "Dear third cousin once removed and live in partner" "Dear Uncle's Ex-wife and current Toyboy" (at least one of these is not real) and they have been doing this since I first met them 30 years ago so it's not some new Moon Pig fueled trend. It's obviously important to them so I like to honour that by reflecting the names that DS uses for his grandparents when sending cards from him to that side of the family.

Santa and Father Christmas are two different people. Do your research MN FFS!

Santa is Saint Nicholas.
Father Christmas represents the good cheer of Christmas and wore a green coat.
Back when Catholicism and Saints days were celebrated, Saint Nicholas gave kids presents on his Saints day in early December.
When Protestantism happened, it got absorbed into Christmas.

It's got fuck all to do with Coca-Cola, or America and is actually Martin Luthers fault so blame him.

@Plantstrees

I have said YABU purely because Santa is an Americanism rather than a regional variation. I love to hear different accents but wish we could keep the Americanisms out of our language.

It definitely isn’t an Americanism. It’s been used in Scotland for over a hundred years.

And anyway, here in Scotland, why would it be worse to use an Americanism rather than very foreign (to most Scottish ears) Father Christmas?

We have our own legal system, own education system and many devolved areas.

As we say in the guid Scots tung:
Here’s to us. Wha’s like us? Gey few and they’re a’ deid

What does that mean?

Cheers to us
Who is like us?
Very few, and they are all dead.

Thanks.

@WeeHaggisFace

Never seen these daily or even weekly posts you allude to

I have.

The words 'gotten' and 'myself/yourself/himself' seem to get people into particularly frothed up.

I think you r just got a bed in your bonnet here, OP.

Where all these threads, week after week, day after day? I can’t think of one

This is a non-issue surely (except in your head maybe)?

“Cheers to us
Who is like us?
Very few, and they are all dead.”

Wtf? Why would you want to be like dead people as a culture?

Agreed. In NI and Ireland bring and take are used differently to English English. I believe it is due to the Gaelic words. Another thing that is accused of being Americanism.
Also "needs done" instead of "needs doing".

I wasn't speaking specifically about Santa though, it's general observation about how Americanisms have infiltrated and influenced people's choice of words.

Yet, many of those words were already spoken here and have been for decades and longer but instead of some admitting that they know little about anything outside their own region, they rather moan about Americanisms.

I'm Yorkshire (4th generation north East England) and just got a gift from Santa (aka my mum who still writes from Santa), I honestly don't think I've heard anyone this year say Father Christmas. I also don't think any of my northern relatives (we're literally in all areas of the UK and 2 internationally) ever say Father Christmas, my grandad (born 1931) certainly wouldn't say Father Christmas, maybe St Nick if he was making a joke.

I do definitely feel it happens where people are just plain told they're wrong rather than it's just being a regional variation. Just in the last week on here one thread was briefly derailed by posters insisting it's dinner not tea (a really tired arguement) and that it wasn't Santa. There's probably been others I've not really picked up on but those are the 2 that stood out this week.

Amusing how many people here misspell Sinterklaas - who also has regional names and spellings in the Netherlands/Flanders/Western Germany. His helper's name and appearance may vary too, but is most certainly not an elf. Celebrated on 5/6 December, you're all late to the party

@TenGames

Agreed. In NI and Ireland bring and take are used differently to English English. I believe it is due to the Gaelic words. Another thing that is accused of being Americanism. Also "needs done" instead of "needs doing".

Yes, this one confused me. You take something to a party but you can only 'bring' it home? I think! I'm not even sure. Bring it with you. Take it with you. They both sound ok to my ear. This is one place where I just don't hear the mistake.

I notice that Americans do something different to us (and by ''us'', here, I mean the British and the Irish) with their conditional tense.

I wish I could identify what it is now but I just know that listening to a certain conditional tense, I think ''that doesn't sound right''.

@TrashyPanda ha ha, I like that. Sums it all up.

See also Mom, Mam, Mamma and jag.

Yes! The bring and take thing, I really struggle with that. The way I use them is very wrong apparently.

Actually, that bring /take thing was a real learning curve for me.

I'd always been a little supercilious with regards to speaking well. I spoke well, I knew I spoke well, I'd had every advantage. My parents spoke well and passed that on, so speaking well was effortless. It was no achievement. I used to wonder why don't people just learn the past participle? Why do they say I ''have ran'' when it's I have run. Why do they say from Peter and I when it's from Peter and me. Why don't they just do it right I wondered. And then I had a corner rubbed off when I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong with bring/take and realised that if it's not the language you learnt naturally at a really young age, it's hard! I think Noam Chomsky said this (but better)

In fact, I am still getting the bring /take thing wrong!

I said upthread bring it to a party and take it home.

Wrong!

''The essential difference between these two words is that bring implies movement towards someone or something: Bring your instrument with you when you come over. Whereas take implies movement away from someone or something: Take your belongings with you when you're leaving.''

This is a mistake my parents made so I'm hardwired to make it too.

I'll try to get it right, if I remember I won't

Much more likely it was an Americanism that was transported back to Scotland and Ireland,

Why is it more likely that to have come from the US than something that colonists, including those from Ireland, Scotland, and Northern England took with them? Just because most trade went through one area doesn't mean the way language changed can be neatly divided that way.

Not all Americans call him Santa Claus anyways. Much like in the UK, the regions with more power and access to media often get their use more recognized.

This is a non-issue surely (except in your head maybe)?

If you search Americanisms here, you'll find dozens upon dozens of threads discussing the supposed decline of British English often with people discussing phrases that vary widely over the British Isles.

While the MN weirdness around it can be a bit of a laugh, I wish it was a non-issue. There are professionals having to push accent and dialect recognition and positivity as it's become a more recognized bias and harm around even simple differences in language use as being described. I'm aware of physical violence that has happened, particularly in schools, because someone has taken issue with another using a different dialect word, including "Americanisms" that come from elsewhere in the UK.

There is very much a cultural framing of 'us v them' that sometimes can be good fun in jest, but at other times it really othering and harmful. I've had kids sobbing because they just want to be seen as from their country by peers who have very fixed idea of what is 'British' or from their local region and other everywhere else. As adults, there are times to be mindful about these impacts.

Wtf? Why would you want to be like dead people as a culture?

Many cultures have expressions or concepts that we are most like our ancestors and loved ones who have died. I know I've gone through times in grief where I've felt that.

So you would take a lasagne to your neighbour's house but bring home the empty dish. I can do this. I can do this.

@MajorCarolDanvers Thanks for that. So interesting, and I have just spent an hour reading Wikipedia articles in Scots, which is very etymologically exciting.