Criminalising 12 and 13 year old.

[ItsAllAboutTheLighting]

A 12 abs 13 year old jumped my 10 year old son, beat him to the ground, punched him in the ribs, the head repeatedly, kicked him in the back.

He was hurt and traumatised.

I've called the police and they are investigating. Slowly.

When I spoke to police about it 3 weeks ago, he said there were a few options and whilst I could press charges and the kids end up with a criminal record, they discourage it due to not wanting to criminalise children.

There is another option where the kids join this kind of scheme which lasts a few weeks, not really sure what it entails but they also have to write and apology to my son.

Those children know I have reported it to the police.

I was in favour of the scheme, but now want to press charges.

The reasons are this

2 kids kicked the hell out of my 10 year old.

When they had finished a girl who was with them said to one of them "Chris, you need to stop beating people up"
So he does it a lot apparently

And lastly, this week when my son was out for the first time since, he bumped into one of them and he told my son "he wants to slap the bitch" the bitch being me.

To answer some questions which I know will be asked
We live next door to a green and park. This is where the incident happened.
My 10 year old went out again because I can't keep him hostage.
He's allowed in close proximity of our home and I know where he is all the time (find my iPhone).

WIBU to criminalise these children.

Right now I'm pissed off and possibly not thinking rationally so wanted some views that weren't emotionally charged.

Hi OP. I am a police officer, and evidence review officer, so make charging decisions.

In cases like these, yes there are a few options, but these are for the police to determine the most appropriate.

It sounds like you and your son have ruled out Community Resolution, which would be for the offender to admit guilt and apologise. That’s fine, that’s your son’s prerogative.

What happens next depends on whether the offenders admit it in interview. If they do, and providing that they are not recorded for similar already, they would be eligible for a caution. This is not your decision, and although you may be asked for your views ultimately police decide whether this is the appropriate outcome.

However, it may not reach this stage because the first step after they admit guilt would be to refer them to the Youth Offending Scheme. They will meet with them and check their suitability for intervention work, and if approved they will have to attend a series of appointments in which they work on specific topics like peer-pressure, substance-misuse etc. (depending on the nature of the offending). If they engage well, at the end of the scheme there may be no further action or they may indeed be issued with that caution.

If the offender doesn’t engage, or is not suitable due to previous, proven offending (not just hearsay) then they will be charged or summonsed to appear in court - again this is a police decision not CPS unless there were serious injuries.

Charges to court for juveniles are only for the more serious cases, or when all other previous intervention work has tried and failed already - it’s obviously preferable to try to turn the child around and get them off the offending pathway if at all possible.

However, if the offenders don’t admit it, and there is sufficient evidence to show them being responsible then the only option is to charge them to court. Solicitors will usually try to advise their clients to admit their part at an early stage if possible, knowing that intervention work is available as an alternative to court.

I had a violent parent and grew up in an abusive environment. My dad punched me in the face, trashed my house, threw furniture at my head. I had to lock myself in my bathroom and tried to climb out the window at 7 years old because I thought he was going to kill me. I have never been violent or aggressive towards anyone. I still believe its a choice.

I'm so sorry this happened to you. It's dreadful. And one of the many things I think is that we need to support and celebrate the circuit breakers in families. Those people who stop the abuse falling down families generation after generation.

Also what happens to the children that are bullied/beaten up by other kids that also have an abusive home life? Because that was me. I was severely bullied in school and my home life was so bad that I just stopped going home.

Also what happens to the children that are bullied/beaten up by other kids that also have an abusive home life? Because that was me. I was severely bullied in school and my home life was so bad that I just stopped going home.

THIS! It is not just about them and their precious home life. They can wreck havoc and suffer no consequences for fucking years, I don't give a shit about personal ones or what they are/were going through. They need to know that their behaviour is wrong and suffer actual consequences. I found it disturbing that my bully even had children.

You need to take the strongest options available through the legal system. If the parents were taking this seriously, I might have a different opinion, but clearly they do not.

How do I know they don’t take it seriously, because the perpetrators are outside together after the incident. Any child involved in an assault should lose the privilege to be out unsupervised for a very long time. If it were my 13yo I would start walking him to the school door and picking him up like he was in reception.

Press charges. At least Your'll know you did all you could.

If the resolution meeting is part of a restorative justice scheme, these can be quite effective at reducing reoffending.

I'd want to know a bit more about it before deciding, I think.

Thanks @MrsGarethSouthgate that was really helpful, as you can probably tell, I didn't know any of that!

With regards to their home lives, this is where my struggle was.
I work with families in my career who have chaotic home lives, where DV takes place, housing issues and more.
I absolutely understand that this might be an issue.

One thing that stood out to me though is that the older one of them is incredibly short for his age, he's very very gobby and walks in a kind of weird swagger.
I wonder if he's been bullied for his height and he's trying to make himself bigger/better somehow.

Either way, he's 13, my son is 10 and there were two of them. My empathy ends about there.

@MrsGarethSouthgate

However, if the offenders don’t admit it, and there is sufficient evidence to show them being responsible then the only option is to charge them to court. Solicitors will usually try to advise their clients to admit their part at an early stage if possible, knowing that intervention work is available as an alternative to court.

Am I right in thinking that even once the police have charged them, the CPS could still decide not to prosecute, @MrsGarethSouthgate?

They aren't safe to be in society. Why are you even questioning?!

I'd take it as far as you can. They're criminals and your son needs to know he can trust the system to protect him.

I get the point about criminalising children but they could easily kill somebody. My own teen daughter was slapped on the bottom by a few boys about 6 months ago. Not physically hurt but it is classed as a sexual assault. They knew who they were but couldn’t prove it so it went nowhere. Last month one of those boys involved was arrested for stabbing another teenage boy to death. When they get away with it these things can escalate with tragic consequences. I would absolutely prosecute

I think it's sickening that the police tried to persuade you not to press charges! A run-of-the-mill incident of children pushing would be different. These boys seem to have serious problems, and someone needs to intervene and hold them to account. A few days of having to pretend to feel sorry for what they did isn't enough, imo.

Take it as far as you can. Definitely deserve a criminal record.

A couple of older boys beat up my youngest. Police didn’t take it further. A few months later the same boys broke my 9 year old’s arm - in front of independent adult witnesses.

Although the police decided not to prosecute, they did refer the family to “involvement”.

Part of me knows these kids don’t stand a chance because their parents are useless - so I hope having SS breathing down their necks for a few months passes them off.

As a someone who works in Criminal Justice.....press charges. Even if they end up with "intervention" it could give these kids a chance not to be revolving door cases in 5 years time.

You would actually be doing them a favour believe it or not.

Those kids are old enough to know better. Also,, kids that agr are stabbing people to death so go ahead and press charges.

@MrsGarethSouthgate

Hi OP. I am a police officer, and evidence review officer, so make charging decisions.

In cases like these, yes there are a few options, but these are for the police to determine the most appropriate.

It sounds like you and your son have ruled out Community Resolution, which would be for the offender to admit guilt and apologise. That’s fine, that’s your son’s prerogative.

What happens next depends on whether the offenders admit it in interview. If they do, and providing that they are not recorded for similar already, they would be eligible for a caution. This is not your decision, and although you may be asked for your views ultimately police decide whether this is the appropriate outcome.

However, it may not reach this stage because the first step after they admit guilt would be to refer them to the Youth Offending Scheme. They will meet with them and check their suitability for intervention work, and if approved they will have to attend a series of appointments in which they work on specific topics like peer-pressure, substance-misuse etc. (depending on the nature of the offending). If they engage well, at the end of the scheme there may be no further action or they may indeed be issued with that caution.

If the offender doesn’t engage, or is not suitable due to previous, proven offending (not just hearsay) then they will be charged or summonsed to appear in court - again this is a police decision not CPS unless there were serious injuries.

Charges to court for juveniles are only for the more serious cases, or when all other previous intervention work has tried and failed already - it’s obviously preferable to try to turn the child around and get them off the offending pathway if at all possible.

To add to the excellent information given by @MrsGarethSouthgate, I am a magistrate in the youth courts (as well as adult criminal courts).

Every effort is made not to criminalise young people and by the time they get to court they have usually been through one of more of what we call 'out of court disposals' which mean working with the police and youth offending service.

Even when young people go to court, provided they plead guilty or are found guilty in trial, the sentencing has very different aims to adult criminal court. In a youth court the main aims of sentencing are to prevent further offending and the welfare of the child (i.e. the offender). The reason for this is because if agencies work together to work out why the young person has offended/ is offending, then there is a chance to work on those reasons and then potentially stop the offending. Which is in the interests of everybody community-wide.

Un PC as it is to say, there are usually circumstances behind why a young person has offended. It is rare that they are just a 'little shit', although that does also happen.

In court, most sentences involve working with the local youth offending team. Obviously there are detention and training orders which involve custody but these are very rare as it usually leads the child to mix with people further entrenched in a criminal lifestyle. Having visited a couple of detention and training centres, I can assure you they are horrible horrible places. In my experience I felt they had a worse atmosphere and feel than adult prisons I have visited, which is saying something.

In our local area, the youth offending team are brilliant. They work closely with schools, social workers, police etc and they really do look deeply into the child's life to see where they can make a difference and what the issues are. They have many programmes that they work with the young people on, such as peer pressure, knife awareness, decision making, managing temper and impulsiveness, drug work etc.

Most, but not all, court sentences that are imposed on young people come off their record very quickly under the rehabilitation of offender's act. So the 'criminalising' is a thing but not half as bad as with an adult getting a criminal record.

@ItsAllAboutTheLighting I fully understand you being angry and frustrated, I would be too. And I think I may well want to pursue a prosecution too (of course, as much as you can state your views, it is a police and CPS decision whether to prosecute)

At the end of the day the perpetrator is likely to end up doing the same work with the youth offending team whether it is a statutory order (i.e. through court) or an out of court disposal. The benefit of a statutory order is that they have to engage in it or they go back to court, and at that age a parent needs to engage with it too or they can end up in court.

(Excuse me using child/ young person and youth throughout, they are sometimes called different things dependent on age but all applies in this case).

Oh 100% I’d go after the little scrotes as much as possible. They deserve everything they get and if it follows them indefinitely on a record then oh well. Mud sticks.

I had the same issue and was given similar options. I said I didn't want him to have a criminal record and the matter was dealt with.

Then it happened again, same kid. This time I insisted it was dealt with as a criminal matter. Nothing came of it but I think it made the kid/parents realise I would be reporting every single incident from then on until the behaviour stopped - which thankfully it did. Now I'd go straight for the harshest option every time due to the impact it all had on my DS (he's now being home educated due to ongoing bullying).

Fuck that, criminalise away OP. Hope your DS is ok.

I would push for the harshest penalty available.

The little rats criminalised themselves.

I work at a youth offending service.
They deserve to be punished, your son deserves justice.
Please inform the police about the latest incident, it will add weight to your original complaint.
If you press charges and the CPS take it to court they will get a referral order which means they will have to work with the YOS for a minium of 3 months.
It might just knock some sense in, so they don't do it again.
Please don't ever think that by protecting your child you are criminalising another child, they did it to themselves and you're teaching your child that they should not accept this type of behaviour happening to them.

They criminalised themselves. My oldest son used to hang around with a group that did antisocial things such as moving traffic cones around, throwing eggs at cars on Halloween etc. As soon as he hit 10 I sat him down and told him if he did anything or was around when anything was happening and the police got involved I wouldn't save him from them and if he ended up with a criminal record that was on him. He soon disassociated himself from the trouble makers. I think the police should go into schools in year 5 and explain about them reaching the age of criminal responsibility its not just kids being kids anymore it can seriously mess up your life. Anyway if I was you I would want the book thrown at them, its only luck your son wasn't seriously injured or killed it only takes 1 kick or punch.