To wonder what happened in the F1 yesterday?

[WonderingWoman30]

I am trying to get my head around what happened with Lewis v Max in the F1 yesterday! I have read articles and was watching it… but I don’t understand the controversy… can anyone explain in (very) simple terms?!

Yes I'm not sure I ever recall thinking a SC was unnecessary, and the rules around when it should be used are very strict (rightly) since Bianchi.

@MrsFin - you wrote:
I think that what happened was that Hamilton was some way ahead of Verstappen, but then when the safety car came on Verstappen was able to catch up, and then went on to get ahead of Hamilton on the last lap and won the race. Had the safety car not come on, Verstappen would have been too far behind to be able to win.
This is not correct.

There was an accident with a Williams car (it crashed into the barriers) and the Safety Car had to come out to keep all of the remaining drivers to a set speed limit while the marshals could recover the damaged car. This took a number of laps and was very near the end of the race.

When the Safety Car came out, Lewis Hamilton had passed 5 cars (i.e. there were 5 cars on a lap behind Lewis that were between him and Max Verstappen. Max still had to overtake these cars and was on the same lap as Lewis).

Then it came down to the rulebook. As @BiscuitBean wrote, it was either a decision to let all of the cars overtake the safety car and then bring in the safety car or leave all of those 5 cars between Max and Lewis and have Max overtake them (as Lewis had to do prior to the Safety Car) and try to then overtake Lewis to win.

Michael Massi (Race Director) decided to let only the 5 cars between Max and Lewis go ahead of the safety car (thereby unlapping themselves and putting them at the 'back' of the queue and on the same lap as the leaders but NOT the ones that were behind Max and were a lap or two down) bringing Max much much closer to Lewis and on fresher tyres and more likely to be able to overtake Lewis without having the hassle of having to overtake the other 5 cars.

This is NOT about what Lewis earns or Max earns or even about Netflix Drive to Survive.

This is about the most basic rules in the sport and how they get applied when there is the Driver's Championship at stake.

This is like saying to someone cycling the Tour de France that they can have a top of the range bike with new tyres to compete against their nearest rival but when the final stages are being decided and they are level on time (or points as it was in the case of F1), that you are suddenly handed a tricycle with tyres that aren't new, a number of your competitors that were between you and your main rival can go in front of you and yet your main rival can be right behind you, keep cycling their top of the range bike and they go on to win.

@BHX3000

The time line is clear, they decided to not un-lap the cars (handing Lewis the race) then changed their minds BUT only 5, had they done all the lapped cars, as per the rules, the race would have finished under the safety car.

A contrived finish to the race.

There is no ideal solution but at least a re start, with 5 laps to go, with all cars on their best rubber, allows for some competition, one lap with one car on brand new softs and the other on worn out hard tyres is not a competition.

@Crazyhouse123

So....if you take out any bias towards Hamilton on balance was this wrong as per race rules and regulations? I am more of a motogp fan but followed the news on this yesterday and can't really get my head around it

YES.

I honestly feel for all of the staff in all of the other teams as they had to be part of this shit show too.

Why would they follow any of the rules that the FIA have written if the most basic one regarding the safety car wasn't followed by the very people who wrote the rules!

Exactly Mindy and BHX, the fact that a safety car might have to come out and erode any lead/time differential at any time in the race is just part of parcel of racing and race planning, no-one can legitimately call it unfair. In fact I think Lewis was on the radio to Bono at various points in the race worrying about his tyres and the possibility of a safety car or VSC because he foresaw this very scenario playing out (but there was just never a good moment to bring him in without losing too much track position). The bit that's (potentially) unfair is that Merc had to make their very quick decision re pitting thinking they understood what the rules about the safety car would be and turned out they didn't, to their cost...

There is no ideal solution but at least a re start, with 5 laps to go, with all cars on their best rubber, allows for some competition, one lap with one car on brand new softs and the other on worn out hard tyres is not a competition.

It has happened so many times before, and it would have been a fair competition had they not screwed up the procedure which allowed it. Latifi crashed one lap early, and we’re not even discussing this today. It happens, it’s F1.

How they dealt with the SC coming back in was not on. Red flagging and therefore wiping out RB’s advantage from gambling on the strategy, would’ve been even worse.

@Essexmum321

As a PP said Lewis Hamilton is one of the highest 5000 tax payers in the UK, he earns money and pays taxes in 19 countries and has pledged to donate £20 million to charity to support underrepresented groups in the UK

This. I'm fed up with the hate towards Lewis and I'm not even a particular fan of his as I support McLaren.

I'm even less of a fan of Max for allowing his father to follow him around and bask in reflected glory after everything he's done.

@Lillygolightly - I don't even think that Max would have been on pole for Sunday's race had he not received a slip stream from Perez in qualification!
He also got a slip stream from him during the race so Perez has clearly signed himself to be the #2 driver in RBR. They hadn't won the Constructors championship - Mercedes had that in the bag as long as Lewis finished the race. So it was all down to the Driver's Championship.

@MrsFin

I'm pretty pleased Hamilton didn't win though - based on the fact that he pays no/very little tax in the UK. He lives in Monaco, though he owns residences elsewhere in the world. He specifically told Parkinson in an interview years ago that he had decided not to live in the UK to avoid taxation.

And you think all the other drivers, including Verstappen, live where?

For me the biggest issue was that Red Bull, for the second time in consecutive races pushed Masi to change his mind, which he then did. Even Britney (if you watched Drive to Survive) who isn't exactly a fan of Lewis Hamilton, said what a ridiculous scenario that is.

@LookItsMeAgain Max gained a 0.1-0.2 advantage from that slipstream. His gains vs Lewis were made in S3, where a slipstream is useless, and he didn’t even have one there. He was 0.5 up on Lewis during his first run. The gap would’ve have stayed the same, had Max completed his second run (which he didn’t, as there was no need).

People not thinking XYZ, when the data and telemetry states otherwise, doesn’t give way to very accurate takes on the matter.

How they dealt with the SC coming back in was not on. Red flagging and therefore wiping out RB’s advantage from gambling on the strategy, would’ve been even worse

No not at all, because the strategy RB used on a SC pit stop wasn't available to Lewis, he was too close to the pit lane entrance to come in and give his team time to change tyres, Max had an additional 12 seconds.
Also, had Lewis pitted, Max may not of, handing him track position and if the race had finished behind the SC, Max would have then won, with everyone say what an idiot he was for stopping! max had lost the race at this point, he had nothing lose.

I get you feel Max should be rewarded for putting on new tyres but equally, why should Lewis see his 12 sec racing advantage wiped out?

If you don't want the 5 lap finish, then the race would have finished behind the SC, not ideal either :(

@senua

The closing of the gap was correct. I don't think 'correct' is the word here; 'conventional' maybe. Why should the Safety Car being out mean that time-differentials are lost due to bunching? How is that fair? I think PlanetNormal's analogy is spot on.

You're wrong.

The use of a safety car means no overtaking but the gaps are closed. This always happens in any race.

The Virtual safety car however used in lesser circumstances as the Latifi crash means drivers have to reduce their speed by 40% no overtaking and therefore the gaps remain.

Regardless they always will bunch up on a safety car. That's the way the cookie crumbles in f1 . It will either benefit a driver or it won't.

Both Merc and Redbull both were always going to complain about everything. Should Lewis have slowed down to allow max to regain his position after the first lap incident? Probably!

Should toto Wolff (merc boss) have complained to the race director about Perez's defending at lap 20 as "dangerous" absolutely not! It was racing.

The whole thing is a total shame for what's been a fantastic season.

Agree with pp who said they should have red flag the race and restarted after the crash was cleared!

Also they only let the cars between Lewis and Max unlap themselves, if they’d done all the cars (as per the regulations) then Max might have had Carlos Sainz nipping at his heels trying to get past him which would have been a different proposition again.

[quote BHX3000]@LookItsMeAgain Max gained a 0.1-0.2 advantage from that slipstream. His gains vs Lewis were made in S3, where a slipstream is useless, and he didn’t even have one there. He was 0.5 up on Lewis during his first run. The gap would’ve have stayed the same, had Max completed his second run (which he didn’t, as there was no need).

People not thinking XYZ, when the data and telemetry states otherwise, doesn’t give way to very accurate takes on the matter.[/quote]
Using an opposing teams car to slipstream to gain an adv in qualifying is one thing, engineering it is quite another.
But agree, Max would still have ended up on pole, though it did him little good as he couldn't convert that into race pace on the day.

@goldfluffyclouds That said - the decision to either use virtual or real safety car in many cases has shown not to be about safety but to give a 'more interesting' race.

100% this, there’s been a number of times this season we’ve had exactly the same conversations because it’s just not made sense! Mind you, there’s just been a lot this year that’s not made sense. I can’t see how any of it has been good for the sport.

The biggest irony is how big a deal they made of not wanting it to be decided in the stewards room, and that the championship should be decided on the track. And they’ve done this!

[quote LookItsMeAgain]@Lillygolightly - I don't even think that Max would have been on pole for Sunday's race had he not received a slip stream from Perez in qualification!
He also got a slip stream from him during the race so Perez has clearly signed himself to be the #2 driver in RBR. They hadn't won the Constructors championship - Mercedes had that in the bag as long as Lewis finished the race. So it was all down to the Driver's Championship.[/quote]
Too lazy to go back and check, but wasn't Verstappen faster than Hamilton on the lap without a slipstream too?

I get you feel Max should be rewarded for putting on new tyres but equally, why should Lewis see his 12 sec racing advantage wiped out?

I don’t ‘feel’ he should be rewarded, it’s the natural consequence of F1 racing. Same for Lewis losing his advantage. Come on, it’s not like this is the first time this exact scenario happens? Races and championships have been lost and won due to SC. If someone thinks it’s unfair or unusual, they’ve not watched F1 for long.

If yesterday had happened without the Masi involvement and subsequent shenanigans, Hamilton’s loss would have been utterly heartbreaking. But not unfair, or disputed, or Max’s win less deserving. Just very unlucky and sad.

He had time to pit, they rightly chose not to, because en Max would have stayed out. It’s the same thing that happened in Hungary. When you’re the lead car you can’t react to what your opponent is doing, you need to risk it.

@ClowningAround21 I ask again, do you really think engineering a slipstream is something or new or unusual?

Both Mercedes and RB have done that at half the qualifying sessions this year. Some tracks you don’t stand a chance without a slipstream. Everyone does it, especially between teammates and even more so when it’s vital for the championship.

Let’s not take away from Max’s pole, or anybody else’s quali results, because of a slipstream. Half the poles are achieved thanks to a slipstream, and 90% of those are off your own teammate.

Yes Max's position behind Lewis and huge advantage over third gave him the chance to roll the dice.

[quote BHX3000]@ClowningAround21 I ask again, do you really think engineering a slipstream is something or new or unusual?

Both Mercedes and RB have done that at half the qualifying sessions this year. Some tracks you don’t stand a chance without a slipstream. Everyone does it, especially between teammates and even more so when it’s vital for the championship.

Let’s not take away from Max’s pole, or anybody else’s quali results, because of a slipstream. Half the poles are achieved thanks to a slipstream, and 90% of those are off your own teammate.[/quote]
Absolutely, and no one should lose sight of the fact that Max is a deserving world champion, even the circumstances are controversial. It was one of the all time classic seasons, either driver would have deserved it.

@MrsFin

I'm pretty pleased Hamilton didn't win though - based on the fact that he pays no/very little tax in the UK. He lives in Monaco, though he owns residences elsewhere in the world. He specifically told Parkinson in an interview years ago that he had decided not to live in the UK to avoid taxation.

Jenson Button, Britain’s other recent F1 World Champion, and Hamilton’s former team-mate, also lived in Monaco when he was racing in F1. George Russell & Lando Norris, Britain’s young F1 stars who will both drive for top teams next season are in the process of moving to Monaco. All for the same reason, obviously.

Yet those three white drivers from middle class backgrounds don’t get criticised in the right-wing tabloids for where they choose to live, but a mixed-race driver from a working class background does. Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why that is?

@BHX3000 Nothing like yesterdays farce has ever happened before in F1, in the past, the race would have finished behind the safety car, as per the rules.
Of course SC's have effected race results in the past, just as rain or mechanicals do but re writing rules, in race, to favour one driver over another is, tbh, corrupt.

I also believe Hamilton should have been made to give back the place in the opening lap, Max made that corner first and Lewis should have backed out.

I've followed it since the days of Hunt.

So - and i know there will be a good reason - why don't they all just slow down and stop when there is a big incident on the track. They must all stop within a certain number of seconds and then start again when the track is clear?

Everyone stays in order and the race just carries on.

I also understand that Hamilton didn't have a set of softs left to change to - that is also down to strategy over the whole weekend. It's not Verstappens fault he took a risk in pitting and changing tyres to be able to take advantage of the opportunity should it arise.

These things happen in F. I'm old enough to remember Nigel Mansel's tyre blowing out in the last lap when he was "sure to win ". Think it was 1986