To wonder what happened in the F1 yesterday?

[WonderingWoman30]

I am trying to get my head around what happened with Lewis v Max in the F1 yesterday! I have read articles and was watching it… but I don’t understand the controversy… can anyone explain in (very) simple terms?!

@MrsFin

I'm pretty pleased Hamilton didn't win though - based on the fact that he pays no/very little tax in the UK. He lives in Monaco, though he owns residences elsewhere in the world. He specifically told Parkinson in an interview years ago that he had decided not to live in the UK to avoid taxation.

And where does Max Verstappen live?

@PlanetNormal

The football Champions League Final was in the 89th minute (of 90) when the stadium lights suddenly went out. Team A was leading Team B 5-0 at the time. The referee stopped the game while the lights were fixed.

There was till 1 minute of the game still to be played, but when the referee re-started the game he ignored the rules, re-set the score to 0-0, sent off Team A’s goalkeeper and all its defenders and said ‘next goal wins’. Team B scored and ‘won’ the match.

This. But also allowed the losing team to change half their players so they were fresher whilst the other team were tiring.

For people who watched for the first time yesterday:

Safety car: comes out when there's an accident, slows down the cars and bunches the field up so an accident can be cleared safely (obviously can't have marshals on track with cars racing). No overtaking allowed. Usually, lapped cars are allowed overtake and build a gap in front of the pack so that when the racing resumes, cars are together in race order.

People (on Twitter etc) complaining about Hamilton losing his advantage to Verstappen are flat out wrong - losing an advantage to a safety car is a normal part of racing, and it's an important part of strategy to have a plan for what to do. It was more or less a no brainer for Hamilton to stay out and keep track position, and a definite no brainer for Verstappen to stop for fresh tyres once Hamilton didn't.
That much was all fine.

As others have said, the problem is in the lapped cars. Usually, they're all allowed to overtake. There is an option for them to be left in situ which I can't remember being used before, but it's there. There is an accepted wish that races shouldn't finish under safety car where possible.

The argument is over whether or not Masi was allowed to only let SOME lapped cars through rather than ALL. There wouldn't have been time to let them all through and restart the race. Personally, I think if what he did is allowed under the rules (rather than just convention), I think it was the best call to allow the race to finish as a race. If it's not allowed under the rules, then obviously it wasn't ok - but what on earth a court of appeal could do I don't know. That will be the discussion now.

However, I do think the dithering wasn't great, and that Masi hasn't been inspiring as a race director. It's time for someone new.

It is an incredibly fitting ending to this season that it ends in controversy and close racing. Anyone saying this sort of controversy is anything new in F1 isn't familiar with the sport.

I do think the result will stand, but that procedure will change in future.

AND in addition to this, the race director specifically stated that the lapped cars wouldn't be allowed to unlap themselves before randomly changing his mind after it was too late for mercedes to change strategy.

Mercedes wouldn’t have been able to change strategy regardless of Masi’s decision on the unlapped cars. That’s not how it works.

Even if he’d changed his mind laps earlier, Mercedes couldn’t bring Lewis in for new tyres, because he would have lost track position. That’s the same scenario as every time there is a SC/VSC, the strategy wasn’t affected by Masi’s decision.

@MrsFin

I'm pretty pleased Hamilton didn't win though - based on the fact that he pays no/very little tax in the UK. He lives in Monaco, though he owns residences elsewhere in the world. He specifically told Parkinson in an interview years ago that he had decided not to live in the UK to avoid taxation.

He was one of the top 5000 UK taxpayers in 2019. Maybe look in to it a bit more before making silly comments.

And who would choose to leave here over living in Monaco if they could afford it

@PlanetNormal

The football Champions League Final was in the 89th minute (of 90) when the stadium lights suddenly went out. Team A was leading Team B 5-0 at the time. The referee stopped the game while the lights were fixed.

There was till 1 minute of the game still to be played, but when the referee re-started the game he ignored the rules, re-set the score to 0-0, sent off Team A’s goalkeeper and all its defenders and said ‘next goal wins’. Team B scored and ‘won’ the match.

No.

The safety car coming out is normal and important. The closing of the gap was correct.

@MindyStClaire There is an option for them to be left in situ which I can't remember being used before, but it's there.

I think they said something yesterday about that being predominantly used in bad weather? I’m not sure I’ve ever seen that tbh.

@PlanetNormal

The football Champions League Final was in the 89th minute (of 90) when the stadium lights suddenly went out. Team A was leading Team B 5-0 at the time. The referee stopped the game while the lights were fixed.

There was till 1 minute of the game still to be played, but when the referee re-started the game he ignored the rules, re-set the score to 0-0, sent off Team A’s goalkeeper and all its defenders and said ‘next goal wins’. Team B scored and ‘won’ the match.

It wasn’t the referee who re-set the score to 0-0. That was the natural consequence of the safety car, in yesterday’s race. It happens ALL the time, and those saying it doesn’t, have no idea about F1. The mistake was the way they ‘turned on the lights’ again…

Lewis Hamilton himself has benefitted from
SC/red flags situations this season, multiple times. When the score was re-set and he was able to catch up those in front, or change tyres, or repair his damaged car… that’s just F1, it happens.

The safety car in procedure wasn’t followed properly yesterday, which doesn’t take away from the initial need for, and consequences of, a safety car.

I half didn't want to watch as I'm a Max fan and throughout the season the rules have been bent in Mercedes favour so many times. I had been predicting that after so much Merc dominance they wanted what looked like a battle right to the last race but that Lewis would be allowed to have a record breaking championship before he's pitted against George Russell. So in actual fact it was a huge surprise to me that they allowed Max to win by allowing this interpretation of the rules this time...

Max wasn't fast enough during the race, despite starting on poll.

The rules are the rules and they state that all cars must un lap the safety car (before the race can start again) not just the 5 between Max and Lewis, there wasn't time to do this, so the rules were not interpreted, they were broken and this allowed a contrived result, especially given they first said no cars would be allowed to un-lap themselves and then, when Redbull complained, they changed their minds.

I'm a F1 fan not a Lewis or Max one, F1 has been bought into mockery, why the fuck didnt Masi red flag it and re start with 5 laps to go.

I hope the legal challenge is upheld and they get a new race director, someone who knows the rules & doesn't allow challenges to his authority in race.

I don't think I've ever seen it be used (although I can't follow as closely these days as have small children, and my memory is shite these days because of said small children).

Of course, it used to be the norm that lapped cars remained where they were, but they have been unlapping for years now.

I think it would be safer to remove them in bad weather than leave them there in the spray!

The closing of the gap was correct.
I don't think 'correct' is the word here; 'conventional' maybe. Why should the Safety Car being out mean that time-differentials are lost due to bunching? How is that fair?
I think PlanetNormal's analogy is spot on.

What I would really love (and this is one for the fans rather than the casual observers) is to know what Charlie Whiting's radio sounded like.

Did the teams speak to him the way they speak to Masi? Did he dither to the same extent? I just can't imagine it somehow, but I'm wondering how much my opinion of him is swayed by seeing behind the curtain as it were, maybe this is how it's always been.

Mercedes say the race director failed to implement the regulations regarding safety car use under one regulation. Race control rejected on the basis they implemented two superseding regulations.

Mercedes also claimed that Max breached over taking rules while safety car was out. Race control rejected as they didn't find the move of Max s car to constitute overtaking.

Lewis was clearly concerned with Mercedes tire strategy and Mercedes ran with it. It didn't work out for them.

I didnt see Toto Wofle to unhappy with Race controls inconsistency when they didn't instruct Lewis to give back track position like they did Max last week earlier in the race. Overall if there has been inconsistency throughout the season it worked the majority of the time to Mercedes favour. The hypocrisy of Totto Wolfe is quite something.

The teams behaviour yesterday was disgraceful. They won the Constructors due to the driving of both of their drivers. Valtteri Bottas last race with Mercedes and no acknowledgement from them. If the roles were reversed they 100% would have thrown everything at it and probably taken the same tyre strategy as Redbull.

I'm absolutely delighted to see their dominance over and I think its making them look absolutely pathetic.

I can't wait for next year.

@MindyStClaire Definitely! Having slower cars mixed in when there’s bad weather seems a recipe for disaster! Mind you, I’m sure it was Martin Brundle that said it so make of that what you will

@senua

The closing of the gap was correct. I don't think 'correct' is the word here; 'conventional' maybe. Why should the Safety Car being out mean that time-differentials are lost due to bunching? How is that fair? I think PlanetNormal's analogy is spot on.

Because you need to bunch the field to safely deal with an incident. Safety cars are the norm for all forms of track motorsport that I'm aware of. The alternative is a red flag and standing start for every incident which is even more artificial.

Those going on about football etc aren't considering the safety aspect.

@ClowningAround21

1. Max was plenty fast enough yesterday, his car wasn’t.

2. They didn’t change their minds because Red Bull complained. The FIA-team radios we see on TV are delayed. These conversations happen before we get to hear them, so they’re not aligned with the race control directives, which we do get live.

3. If they had red-flagged the race, that would have been incredibly stupid given their previous decisions this season. Ask drivers what they thought about the late red-flag in Baku, when it was actually needed because of safety. They were saying ‘it’s a f*ing joke’ on the radio. Ask drivers what they thought about them not red-flagging Q3 in Spa, which almost cost several drivers their lives. They couldn’t red flag for a simple crash, which was next to a recovery vehicle and an escape route.

4. I agree, Masi needs to go. Clearer rules need to be written. Competent stewards need to be employed so this farce doesn’t go on for years.

Thanks all! I think I get it now

@senua I don't think 'correct' is the word here; 'conventional' maybe. Why should the Safety Car being out mean that time-differentials are lost due to bunching? How is that fair?

That’s a good point. The virtual safety car rules seems more fair where all drivers decrease speed by 40% so it doesn’t bunch them up so much.

As a PP said Lewis Hamilton is one of the highest 5000 tax payers in the UK, he earns money and pays taxes in 19 countries and has pledged to donate £20 million to charity to support underrepresented groups in the UK

@senua

The closing of the gap was correct. I don't think 'correct' is the word here; 'conventional' maybe. Why should the Safety Car being out mean that time-differentials are lost due to bunching? How is that fair? I think PlanetNormal's analogy is spot on.

Safety cars are needed for, well, safety. You need to compress the field so they all drive closely together and there is one minute each lap where the track is clear and people can clean it up, repair the damage, or move a car off the road.

For less severe incidents, there is now something called the Virtual Safety Car. Drivers slow down by 40% but the gaps remain the same, there is no need to compress the field.

There was a VSC earlier on in the race, where the incident was less serious. The SC at the end - and it’s natural consequences - isn’t something that can be argued. It would’ve been much worse for someone to crash into Latifi’s car and end up hospitalised because they wanted to respect the gaps created.

[quote BiscuitBean]**@senua* I don't think 'correct' is the word here; 'conventional' maybe. Why should the Safety Car being out mean that time-differentials are lost due to bunching? How is that fair?*

That’s a good point. The virtual safety car rules seems more fair where all drivers decrease speed by 40% so it doesn’t bunch them up so much.[/quote]
I'm not convinced by the VSC. It seems to have hugely varying and unpredictable effects on the gaps depending on where drivers are on the track when it goes green again.

[quote BiscuitBean]**@senua* I don't think 'correct' is the word here; 'conventional' maybe. Why should the Safety Car being out mean that time-differentials are lost due to bunching? How is that fair?*

That’s a good point. The virtual safety car rules seems more fair where all drivers decrease speed by 40% so it doesn’t bunch them up so much.[/quote]
Sometimes the bunching up is absolutely needed to give enough space on track for recovery, sweeping up to make the track clear.
That said - the decision to either use virtual or real safety car in many cases has shown not to be about safety but to give a 'more interesting' race. Me and husband often find ourselves discussing the choice after referring to the track maps/positions as sometimes it looks more like politics than safety... Especially the timing of when the safety car virtual or otherwise ends...

The VSC doesn’t allow for the track to be cleared efficiently when needed. The SC had to be deployed last night because a recovery vehicle was also on track.

Last time that happened, without a SC, Jules Bianchi lost control of his car and drove straight into a tractor crane. He died a few months later after never waking up from a come due to the injuries sustained in the accident.

These are racing drivers. If you don’t tell them to slow down, they won’t slow down. This is why VSC and SC’s are needed, because the race organisers are responsible for their safety and you can’t have cars going around at 200mph and cranes rescuing crashed cars, on the same piece of track, simultaneously.

You've sort of got it MrsFin, Lewis had a virtually unassailable lead most of the way (Red Bull admitted as much with about 15 laps to go saying words to the effect of they needed a miracle). Max was in second place and making ground on Lewis at this point but needed to lap a number of cars before reaching him which in itself would take some time. Lewis's only concern was he had old hard tyres on that should, with cautious driving make it to the end without puncturing but wouldn't let him push hard for faster times. Then the miracle Red Bull needed happened, a backmarker (Latifi) crashed causing a safety car to come out with about 5 laps to go giving Max the ability to close the gap to Lewis to effectively nothing - this was totally not the fault of the stewards BTW and no-one is criticising the bringing out of the safety car which was totally necessary).

The controversy came where both teams then had to make a snap decision about a second pit stop to change tyres during the safety car, Mercedes were assuming that normal previous 'rules' would be followed, i.e. that once the track was clear in about 3-4 laps, either the normal 'unlapping process' would be followed which takes a couple of laps to do and therefore the race would end behind the safety car with an automatic Lewis win (but the stewards wouldn't want this as is an anticlimactic end to the race and would result in protests from Red Bull) OR that no unlapping would happen due to lack of time and therefore it would basically be impossible for Max to have time to get past the cars he needed to lap and catch Lewis in time. The latter is what the stewards initially broadcast would happen and therefore Mercedes left Lewis on his old tyres and in the lead with Max stuck behind a bunch of cars, whereas Red Bull having nothing to lose at this point brought Max in for new tyres. Then suddenly the stewards appeared to invent a new process where only the cars between Lewis and Max moved out the way allowing the climactic final lap where Max with the tyre advantage was able to take the race. That's why people are unhappy as although potentially strictly in line with the rules which state the race director can ultimately decide everything to do with the safety car, in their pursuit of wanting an exciting final lap it does seem to have favoured Max who was slower all the way (not necessarily through bad driving, the Merc was probably just the faster car)... but on the other hand Mercedes had to make their decision re the pit stop very quickly virtually as soon as the crash happened due to where Lewis was on the track, by the time all the shenanigans with the lapping/unlapping happened they'd basically made their bed and had to lie in it as they'd have had to bring Lewis in after Max and lost track position anyway by that point (but it would have been a more fair and exciting final showdown if they'd both had fresh tires compared to Max just zooming off, Lewis WUZ ROBBED!)

Me and husband often find ourselves discussing the choice after referring to the track maps/positions as sometimes it looks more like politics than safety... Especially the timing of when the safety car virtual or otherwise ends...

I think it’s great when fans understand the sport and are able to fully get all the procedures involved in a race.

But I don’t think anyone believes the FIA plays games with the timing or deployment of VSC/SC. That’s a safety issue, people are constantly dying or being injured and they do not take it lightly. Discussing whether a SC is needed or not is not our job, because we don’t have all the data they do, to support such decisions.

Fans opposed the halo and the HANS device. They’ve saved so many lives already. We don’t have the information they do when it comes to vital safety decisions.

The issue yesterday was the SC in procedure, not the deployment or timing of it, you can’t manipulate those.