To be very frustrated in A and E just now.

[changeitatanytime]

I'm in Scotland, was advised by my doctor to go directly to A and E as have been having shortness of breath for few weeks and today I had an episode of chest pain.

Arrived at A and E at 4 pm. Was told to stand outside as shortness of breath was Covid symptom. Then brought into own room so I'm isolated (negative LFT). Was seen by doctor fairly quickly and was told would get bloods done, an ecg and a chest X-ray.

Had my bloods taken at 5 pm and chest X-ray at 5.10.

I have now been sat in this room alone for 1.5 hours without anyone even popping their head in to let me know what is happening. And no one has done an ecg.

I understand that they are very busy but someone presenting with shortness of breath and heart pain not being checked on for an hour and a half? Surely that's not right.

I'm not the most patient person and can feel my heart rate going up and blood starting to boil.

Am I allowed to just walk out the hospital without saying a thing? Do you think I'm being unreasonable? What time should I give them to until leaving?

@C8H10N4O2

But the NHS is bad because of bad management is a mantra that has been around for decades, and it just doesn’t hold up

But it does hold up that is the problem. Yes its underfunded but even in periods of good funding huge sums of money are wasted and its not always government initiatives.

There is no other sector I work with where senior staff actually boast about never having any other experience even within their own sector, let alone in any other sector. And gods forbid you suggest that possibly, just possibly there are some processes and practices in other sectors they could learn from. Every little fiefdom is run like a petty fiefdom. And we should all be "grateful" because its free. Patients are treated as if they should be grateful rather than accessing the service they pay for.

During the pandemic for the first time ever in my working life the fiefdoms collaborated because they were forced to - suddenly they had to play catch up in areas where they had refused to modernise just a few of their costly and dated processes and really dreadful employment practices. As soon as the first wave passed it was back to fiefdom mentality. There is no excuse for this and they get away with it because of the sacred caste status and mentality of the NHS.

All my life I've voted to support public healthcare financially but I've reached the point where the need for structural change and probably a model change is the only way forward to challenge that fiefdom mentality and the treatment of patients as supplicants who must be grateful.

Are you an academic? I didn't understand half of that 🤣

Posters ought to remember that OP was experiencing chest pain and was probably frightened. Frightened people don't generally think rationally in the moment and OP's reaction is understandable.

However, it is unreasonable to leave a person with chest pain alone in a private room for 1.5 hours. How would staff had known if OP had suddenly deteriorated? Put it this way, it OP was an elderly or vulnerable person, and had deteriorated in the room, my team would be considering a Section 42 Safeguarding Adults enquiry.

@changeitatanytime
Just to warn you, your last few posts have been under @hopeyouhaveabadday so people may well miss them…
I think if you’re not used to A&E it must be very hard to hold to the idea that actually, you don’t really want to be seen quickly. (Although paramedics ignoring all information given to them & deciding you’re a low priority leading to your having a tonic-tonic seizure in the middle of a packed waiting room due to combined effects of a burst ovarian cyst & appendicitis that were written off as being the bug going round… could have done with being seen rather more speedily that time, really. Every rule needs an exception to prove it though, doesn’t it?)
I thought it was good of you to acknowledge you were being “bratty” - a lot of people would just have abandoned thread or doubled down.
WRT checking on you - had your door a window in it at all? Nurses are used to doing quick checks on patients through gaps in cubicle curtains or windows in doors or sometimes propped-open doors. If not, that does seem like a long time to go without any checks at all, in that someone in a cubicle who was not actively being checked would still be visible if they were to deteriorate.

@Katyppp
It’s absurd - & inappropriate - your father’s having to have routine transfusions in A&E. Even if the hospital doesn’t have a dedicated haematology unit, a general infusion suite would be a more suitable location for a whole host of reasons. He’s probably also eligible for hospital transport - it can mean hanging around a while after you finish your appointment (& you need to be ready to go aeons before your appointment time) but they can keep your mother up to date if your father’s not able to text/call her himself.

Wait times are very long right now, I broke my leg on the 26th November and it took 5 hours of me stuck in the corner of my kitchen on a freezing cold slate floor in shock and excruciating pain unable to move from said pain just for an ambulance to turn up. Then it was a further 2 hours queuing outside A&E, then a further 12 hours once inside before I’d had X-rays etc and a whole 24 hours before a cast was placed.

You just have to wait, they won’t be annoyed if you ask for an update on waiting times though.

@ClintBartonsWife

Posters ought to remember that OP was experiencing chest pain and was probably frightened. Frightened people don't generally think rationally in the moment and OP's reaction is understandable.

However, it is unreasonable to leave a person with chest pain alone in a private room for 1.5 hours. How would staff had known if OP had suddenly deteriorated? Put it this way, it OP was an elderly or vulnerable person, and had deteriorated in the room, my team would be considering a Section 42 Safeguarding Adults enquiry.

Yes I agree, she sounded very frightened and with good reason! I think I’d be terrified if I had heart/chest issues.

'The thing is, the nurses were not working themselves 'to death'. They were standing around the nurses station chatting and laughing. Now that is fine - they can chat and laugh of course and have a break - absolutely fine but to not pop a head in for over 1.5 hours to even see if I needed a glass of water. I legitimately could have been on the floor dead lying there for 1.5 hours and no one would have known. I think if they have time to chat they have time to stick their head in? Aren't nurses supposed to care? '

Nurses don't run around getting glasses of water for people in A&E. you were waiting for results and for the doctor to see you, what exactly did you want the nurses to do? That's like complaining the psychiatrist didn't come in to check you were alright while you were there. There's a big nurse call button in every room, the nurses usually presume if you need them you'll have the gumption to use it.

From the OP's other (now deleted) thread, she got home last night and is now feeling fine, if a little embarrassed.

@SmellyOldOwls

'The thing is, the nurses were not working themselves 'to death'. They were standing around the nurses station chatting and laughing. Now that is fine - they can chat and laugh of course and have a break - absolutely fine but to not pop a head in for over 1.5 hours to even see if I needed a glass of water. I legitimately could have been on the floor dead lying there for 1.5 hours and no one would have known. I think if they have time to chat they have time to stick their head in? Aren't nurses supposed to care? '

Nurses don't run around getting glasses of water for people in A&E. you were waiting for results and for the doctor to see you, what exactly did you want the nurses to do? That's like complaining the psychiatrist didn't come in to check you were alright while you were there. There's a big nurse call button in every room, the nurses usually presume if you need them you'll have the gumption to use it.

I was offered a cup of tea by a doctor in A&E and this was during the covid pandemic. I was poorly and scared. That kindness meant a lot and I’ll always remember that lovely doctor above the many, many doctors I’ve come across in my years.

@MarieVanGoethem, I did question the logic at the time but my parents would not dream of questioning anything their GP said
I just thought the whole thing was appalling, to be honest. I was absolutely furious that the receptionists felt empowered to refuse to contact us, presumably because they know - as is proven on this thread - folk who criticise NHS staff are considered beyond the pale.
As I said in my original post, I really can't think of any other situation or setting where this would be even remotely acceptable.
I am sick of apologists telling me how busy they all are. We are all busy but we generally do show a modicum of care towards people like my dad, do we not?
If he had been left for two hours in a station/shop/cafe and the family were not told, there would be an outcry, but somehow because it's NHS it's acceptable because the staff are 'busy'.
I am also aghast at the posters who are strutting debate down by telling people they shouldn't have been there in the first place, even though they were sent by their GP!

Shutting, not strutting!

As long as people make excuses and are prepared to accept this nothing is going to change. It is perfectly possible to appreciate that the staff are doing their best whilst still making a noise about the fact that this is not good enough. The reason politicians do nothing about the Levels of service in the NHS is because they know that people are somehow so in thrall to the NHS that they will put up with anything . We need to be objecting , making a fuss and not be so accepting that does not mean abusing the staff , it means making a noise with your MP, hospital boards of directors etc . We deserve better, some of these stories are horrific , healthcare is free at the point of delivery in many many countries and it’s not like this .

@C8H10N4O2

But the NHS is bad because of bad management is a mantra that has been around for decades, and it just doesn’t hold up

But it does hold up that is the problem. Yes its underfunded but even in periods of good funding huge sums of money are wasted and its not always government initiatives.

There is no other sector I work with where senior staff actually boast about never having any other experience even within their own sector, let alone in any other sector. And gods forbid you suggest that possibly, just possibly there are some processes and practices in other sectors they could learn from. Every little fiefdom is run like a petty fiefdom. And we should all be "grateful" because its free. Patients are treated as if they should be grateful rather than accessing the service they pay for.

During the pandemic for the first time ever in my working life the fiefdoms collaborated because they were forced to - suddenly they had to play catch up in areas where they had refused to modernise just a few of their costly and dated processes and really dreadful employment practices. As soon as the first wave passed it was back to fiefdom mentality. There is no excuse for this and they get away with it because of the sacred caste status and mentality of the NHS.

All my life I've voted to support public healthcare financially but I've reached the point where the need for structural change and probably a model change is the only way forward to challenge that fiefdom mentality and the treatment of patients as supplicants who must be grateful.

This is so true

@Peaseblossum22, I agree wholeheartedly.
I know I am one of the posters referred to as an NHS basher, but honestly, the level of caring my family consistently receive is just awful.
It was the arrogance of telling me they were too busy to contact me that really made my blood boil, and it still is when I think about it.
On a practical level, surely it's in everyone's interest to get rid of patients as soon as they can go? It just makes no sense to me, at all.
I do wonder what jobs people do on here as most jobs I have done have been extremely busy, yet no-one would make excuses for me if I behaved in such a cavalier fashion.

The problem is that the NHS has become a behemoth, it operates in a way which largely has itself ( the organisation not the staff) as the number one priority. It is systemically flawed and has far too many vested interests mitigating against change.
The system really needs to be re focused with the patient at its centre , I am not saying that individual care is not patient centred before people jump on me , what I am saying is that the wider system is not set up to put the patient at the centre. This leads to a misallocation of resources , disjointed systems and inefficient workflows. One example is the way that operating theatres are allocated and for example how a lack of ICU beds limits surgery but yet all the relevant theatre teams are there ready to operate. There is a huge waste of resources because of these poor systems which are not down to any one individual but are attributable to the failure of the organisation at the core and a failure of the public to accept change.

I think people would accept changes to the NHS that was really about improving patient care. The problem is that all the changes that are suggested are about putting money in the hands of private companies and reducing patient care. That is why you think the public are reluctant for change.
I get specialist eye care. There used to an internationally renowned eye care centre in Nottingham NHS provided. THIS was the place to go for what I needed. You couldn't get better privately. The Conservative government privatised it. I no longer go there and get treated by someone with far less experience and expertise. The Nottingham eye centre now struggles to provide very basic level of eye care and cannot provide the specialist treatment it used to. But someone will have made a lot of money from this change.
This is why people like me resist NHS change. Because it simply leads to worse patient care and taxpayers money going in shareholders pockets.
If changes were being proposed and enacted by people who both understood the NHS and truly wanted to have the best patient care for everyone, then I would support that.

But the NHS is bad because of bad management is a mantra that has been around for decades, and it just doesn’t hold up

But it does hold up that is the problem. Yes its underfunded but even in periods of good funding huge sums of money are wasted and its not always government initiatives.

I have to agree, that EVERY single time I have anything to do with hospital appointments, I am astounded at the wastage.

Just this week, I was in a hospital waiting room for an hour. During that time, a staff member spent 50 mins replacing the signs on the chairs asking you not to sit on those chairs (for social distancing purposes). So, she took away the 10 perfectly good signs that were taped on to the chairs. Then she came back and replaced them with 10 different, laminated signs, that had been printed out in block colours. Now, apart from the cost of laminating, and the cost of printing (I've never been able to print in colour without exceptional reason in 30+ years in teaching), there was absolutely nothing wrong with any of the signs in the first place !!! Then, of course there was her salary.
I mean, why ?
Then there is the usual thing in that I have to go back for a procedure, so they will now post me a letter (probably with another map, and list of reminder of instructions - my first letter was 3 sheets of paper), plus envelope and cost of postage, when for free they could e-mail me or send a text (which they do as well).
This is just continuous. My single appointment could save them a couple of £, but when you multiple that up through the hundreds of thousands of appointments in hospitals across the country every day, it starts getting into big money every year, for such a simple change.

Then there is the heating. My hospital is newly built, so heating systems could easily have been zoned and the temperature for those lying in bed be different than the temperature in all the hundreds of outpatient clinics, but instead, it is unhealthily hot and stuffy in all clinics. All staff are in shirt sleeves / bare arms / no cardi or sweatshirt, and all patients are melting, having arrived in normal clothes for winter. It is just bizarre.
I've got hundreds of examples of inefficiency which is seen in every visit to hospital I've had to make over the decades.

I am a HUGE supporter of the NHS, but that does not mean it could not be so much better if someone who had influence actually listened to the people that work there and the people that have to use it.

Hospitals largely cater for elderly people many of whom do not check emails regularly, if they even have them. My mum does banking online etc but does not regularly check her emails, because she doesn't really use email. I agree it would be good to have an opt-in system for emails.
The second thing is that the NHS database systems are supposed to be extremely poor for patient records. This was a hugely expensive IT project delivered by the private sector, and by all accounts delivered badly.

@julieca

I think people would accept changes to the NHS that was really about improving patient care

I disagree, because every time it is discussed, it is somehow seen as a criticism of nurses, who as discussed are beyond reproach.

It is impossible to have a sensible discussion about the NHS, sadly.

@Katyppp every single discussion about proposed changes involves putting taxpayers money in the hands of shareholders and government friends.
And I have rarely seen any NHS privatisation that has made things better, generally, it makes things worse. From catering and cleaning to the specialist eye centre I mentioned. I have seen improvements to GPs services when they are given more freedom and even money to innovate. My surgery had a creche years ago when mothers were being examined, their child was looked after. But as soon as things were centralised, that went.
This current government is hell-bent on centralising the NHS as much as possible. So there is no room for local innovation.

Things aren't good right now.
My presumed covid positive (positive lft, turned out negative pcr) 6 year old was made to wait from 9pm until 2am in a corridor without seeing anyone. Thankfully he improved and my husband asked if he could have his obs and go home.

I just avoid a and e. The only times I've been I've been a blue light to resus but friends and family have gone up with broken wrists and open wounds and been left hours.

I broke my hand recently, it was clearly broken as the bone leading to my index finger was in the wrong place and it swole up like a balloon. I just sort pushed it back to where it looked right and left it. Healed fine have no issues with it. Just avoided using it best I could and driving was painful.

I just couldn't be bothered to wait 10+ hours in a and e for them to go, "yeah it's broken" here's a hand strap thing.

NHS is a mess.

@julieca you should have seen the outcry when they tried to amalgamate stroke services in one hospital in our area. The clinical reasons were completely sound. Yes patients would have to travel further but outcomes are better in specialist units with strength and depth and the ability to give expert care. But no, the local newspaper was up in arms , people were signing petitions etc etc .

@Katyppp
Lots of people who work in the NHS - I think most, even - are wonderful, dedicated, & deserving of endless praise. Then there are some who, for whatever reason, are just trundling through. And then there are people who are careless/slapdash - sometimes to the point of endangering life; those who bully their colleagues &/or patients; those who abuse their power… I think (some) people don’t want to hear about the bad experiences not only because of the love of the NHS but also because they want - need, even - to believe that if they or the people they love are unwell they will receive only good & compassionate care.

Your father being there for ages once he was finished was against the best interests of the department, too: bet the Clinical Lead & Nurse in Charge would NOT have been happy if they knew he was still there because Reception refused to communicate. They’d probably have called themselves if they knew it needed doing tbh, going off what the staff at the A&E I usually attend* are like.

That attitude of Not Questioning Doctor is very hard, isn’t it? Clearly Doctors do have an enormous wealth of knowledge & a huge skillset. But asking “why?” (as long as you’re not going full toddler) & discussing options &c is always ok.

• Not my local hospital, but the neighbouring Trust that manages my care. Last time I ended up in A&E linked to my local Trust (admittedly not one at my local hospital) they failed to do any useful/appropriate investigations; suggested a dangerous intervention (which luckily I knew to decline); & I ended up admitted to a hospital on the opposite side of the city about 12 hours later. Good job, My Local CCG.

@MarieVanGoethem I am still furious about it now, to be honest.
I think it was just the way I was utterly dismissed.
It might sound like a trivial thing, but I was two days into a new job, had to drop everything because the doctor said he had to be there Now and then have my mum call me every 30 minutes to say she couldn't get through.
It's all little gripes in the grand scheme of things, but it made my mum extremely stressed which in turn caused me stress just because a receptionist basically couldn't be arsed to act like any decent person would and hid behind the standard NHS mantra of being too busy.

@Katyppp
I don’t blame you tbh: horrifically stressful for all of you; & if your new job had, say, been on an oil rig (or indeed, less dramatically, in an A&E department), you’d not have been able to help.

(So many kinds of rubbish management that I’m just boggled… there will always be times someone might need an extra/earlier transfusion; but if they’re set up at a haematology unit either they ring themselves to book in or the GP books them in. TBH am cross about it for you.)