women experts get shit that men just don't

[BayesianBlues]

is that your experience?
when I weigh in and (if relevant) mention I have PhD in the area, I have been told (by men) that I'm narcissistic, insecure, don't know what I'm talking about (in my area of expertise), an opinionated drone, full of myself etc
is there something so challenging to some men as a qualified woman? Men don't deal with this shit do they? Although the disparaging of 'experts' seems to be a trend regardless of gender.

That's interesting @LuaDipa , my DD had the opposite at school, she's very strong in STEM subjects and her male teachers were the ones encouraging her and challenging her. While the female teachers even in science subjects were much more likely to put her down.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Thank you for the recommendation of 'The Authority Gap'. Just started reading. I haven't got alll that far in and it's validating EVERYTHING I already knew. The accounts of transgender people before and after transitioning is just depressing but so important.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Mary Ann Sieghart has written a book about this called The Authority Gap. (I haven’t read it, am waiting to borrow dd’s copy).

Thanks for this.

Its a major problem im having generally in life. Would be nice to see it written down and in a form which i can pass around to friends...

I’ve just accepted my first senior rôle/authority role.

Guess I’d better buy The Authority Gap!!!

I’m female, retired and don’t have a PhD or any expertise.

I don’t give way to men on the pavement, or let men queue jump in the supermarket. And try and remember to only use male gendered insults stead of female ones.

I shall now make a point of making sure I address all of my questions/comments only to any woman in a group - even if I know for a fact she is not the most senior.

I don’t get out much, so my contribution will be trivial. Congratulations and well done to all you fabulous women!

I don’t give way to men on the pavement

I once decided to do this in the cortidor at work, to see who would move. One of my colleagues stopped right in front of me, and said, "I thought you were going to hug me." Why? I mean it would be perfectly reasonable (and not without precedent) to think I'm walking along, deep in thought and not really aware of my surroundings, but why would you think if I'm not moving out of the way, the only possible reason would be because I’m about to give someone a hug, when I never do that at work?

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

And expressing an opinion doesn't make you opinionated. It bloody well does when it's based on something read on social media, is based on urban myth, total misunderstanding, lack of information and flies in the face of all known science.

It does when the person doing the questioning sees the very fact that they are questioning a 'challenging', when the expert being 'challenged' expects to be questioned, sees it as a reasonable and essential part of diagnosis, procedure etc. and would be very cautious about continuing without ensuring the non-questioning client/patient had fully understood what had been said.

My dad is like that. Feels somehow vindicated if he asks a slew of questions about whatever. As if his questions, no matter how daft, have proven to whatever expert he is talking to, that he is a man of intellect, not to be trifled with. When what he actually displays is his belligerence and, quite often, fear of not knowing what is going on.

Excellent post.

As a hospital consultant, I want the patient asking questions. I want them to engage with me on the topic of diagnosis and treatment plan. I need to know I’ve communicated correctly, they’ve understood what I’ve said and that they know what their options are. I occasionally encounter patients who are quite deferential and ‘doctor knows best’ and tbh my heart sinks with them because it’s hard to establish that they’ve grasped everything and have realistic expectations. Someone asking about why I’m recommending a particular treatment and what the alternatives are is very welcome and not at all challenging.
It’s very clear to spot the ones who have a chip on their shoulders though, and who have done their own research

I'm anti-experts. Nobody cares if you have a PHD, you still need to argue your case and explain your reasoning and your views and people will make their mind up on their merits. Some men take an argument less seriously if it is coming from a woman which is wrong but I wouldn't take self proclaimed experts seriously man or woman.

I despise this sort of reverse snobbery. It's idiotic.

PhDs are not 'self-proclaimed experts', their qualifications are peer reviewed and rigorously assessed.

You come across like you've a huge chip on your shoulder. Poorly educated by any chance?

@VillanellesOrangeCoat

I had a younger male boss once who had no clue about my area of expertise and definitely had an issue with middle aged women. He forced me to implement changes which I vociferously advised against and predicted the outcome if we proceeded. The only thing I was wrong about was the speed at which these changes caused everything to go pear shaped, costing the company a hell of a lot of money. He put me on a disciplinary and tried to blame me for his fuck up. Tosser.

This is why it's so important to get everything on the record, and to keep a copy yourself.

@EBearhug

I don’t give way to men on the pavement

I once decided to do this in the cortidor at work, to see who would move. One of my colleagues stopped right in front of me, and said, "I thought you were going to hug me." Why? I mean it would be perfectly reasonable (and not without precedent) to think I'm walking along, deep in thought and not really aware of my surroundings, but why would you think if I'm not moving out of the way, the only possible reason would be because I’m about to give someone a hug, when I never do that at work?

The Guardian's former Comment Editor, Seamus Milne used to refuse to give way in corridors. It was some form of power play. One six-foot staffer eventually got fed up with it and kept walking:

order-order.com/2016/03/24/seumas-milne-floored-in-guardian-game-of-chicken/

As a group we don't do ourselves any favours though. Studies have shown that we prefer male bosses, and vote even more strongly in favour of this than men do. We also collaborate better with men and are less likely to help a female colleague if she's senior to us at work.

I once did freelance consultancy work for small businesses, and one of my clients had considerable trouble with me knowing more than he did, despite having specifically engaged me to do the work he couldn't. He would argue the toss at every turn. Stupid git.

That was the one really good thing about being self-employed. I could walk away without a backward glance if I felt like it.

“As a group we don't do ourselves any favours though. Studies have shown that we prefer male bosses, and vote even more strongly in favour of this than men do. We also collaborate better with men and are less likely to help a female colleague if she's senior to us at work”

I wonder why this is?

..... and what we can do about it!

We are all experiencing the same social pressures , ones that show men to be better , successful women are often portrayed as bitchy or neglectful of family or household.

Then to succeed those women need to show no softness , nothing that can be mistaken for female weakness

And also I think we might see sone behaviour, such as not joining in gossip , as fine from a man but stand offish from a woman

@VillanellesOrangeCoat to get a PhD you have to back up every sentence with facts, based on your own research, backed up by other publications. Or if the subject is not a practical one, with full reasonings, and reference to other authors.
You have to prove everything you write down.
I doubt any expert, with PhD or not, in a particular field would go around saying this is so, because I say so! They will be providing explanations, reasoning or experimental proof.
But to be ignored over and over, even when proven wrong is quite annoying!

@Namechangesagain

My boss (female) had the same as *@HoardingSamphireSaurus* She wrote a paper on a very complex issue which the company then used to run a seminar on the issue. She sat next to a guy who then explained how complicated the issue was and how not many people understood it but he did, he then explained the issue to her using the paper she had written. (He came across more condescending then im making this sound) She said she'll never forget his face when she was called up to speak as author of the paper

Rebecca Solnit in her original essay that coined “mansplaining” starts with a similar anecdote - a man who asked her what she was working on at a party, then proceeded to mansplain at her that she really must read a recent book that had just come out about that topic as she would get so much more from it than her own research…said book was written by her!

I don’t give way to men on the pavement

I started doing a similar thing a couple of years ago. I now stare back at men who stare at me - in supermarkets, carparks, work, etc. It's amazing how many do not break their gaze and carry on staring even though you are meeting their eye and stating back unsmiling.

My partner told me to be careful because men will read my behaviour as a positive response. Ffs.

I don't know why but this never really happens to me at work, and I work in a very male dominated field of academia. I'm another one who's always the only woman in the room. I'm sure it's mostly just luck.

I've mostly had this from family and friends with very dogmatic political views (on both sides) who like to rant at me about topics I've been working on for 20 years.

I don’t give way to men on the pavement
I won't either, or the walkways on the site I work on. Patriarchy chicken!
Had one guy absolutely smash into me on site; I was tucked right into the wall (V windy day) and he bee-lined. His mates had a massive go at him.

That reminds me of the time I went to a conference in a particularly niche area of the history of analytic philosophy. It was two days, and there were no women panellists at all, and no discussion of women apart from a brief mention of Anscombe by one male panellist, and most of the discussion and questions was by senior men (though there were women in the audience). I asked a question about the omission of the history of women philosophers from the papers generally, and the all male panel looked at me as if I had just farted in public 🤣

This was in 2015. 🤷‍♀️