women experts get shit that men just don't

[BayesianBlues]

is that your experience?
when I weigh in and (if relevant) mention I have PhD in the area, I have been told (by men) that I'm narcissistic, insecure, don't know what I'm talking about (in my area of expertise), an opinionated drone, full of myself etc
is there something so challenging to some men as a qualified woman? Men don't deal with this shit do they? Although the disparaging of 'experts' seems to be a trend regardless of gender.

@beatrixpotterspencil

I also think other women attack us for it also. But if we are discussing patriarchy, this isn't so surprising. I have witnessed plenty unpleasant retorts on MN when someone attempts to share knowledge and expertise. It is a deep, suspicious defence system against women who exhibit power or intellectual strength. Sort of like not being allowed to 'get above ourselves', knowing our place. I have also noticed on AIBU and S&B that if a woman shows certainty and confidence in her posts/opinions, she will be readily attacked, often it would seem, just for the sake of it. However, if someone appears under-confident, shy or uncertain, she will garner immediate assistance and encouragement.

It's endemic isnt it?

I absolutely agree with this.

Yeah! That's why I left teaching!

I could handle male egos. Couldn't understand the female version.

@CorrBlimeyGG

While women do have to work harder to prove themselves, if I was receiving that much negative feedback, I would be thinking about how I come across.

Well you must be in a quite sheltered enlightened workplace Senior women have also got this- I compared my performance management doc to other women at same level as me one year, we were all getting same sort of personal criticism…and it most certainly wasn’t valid. All of us were senior because we were damned good at our jobs, delivered company objectives, and had good feedback form our customers. We got promotions and pay awards…but the shit personal criticism m was relentless for years. All form men who were younger and basically there role models to women in positions of authority were either their mothers or headmistress. I once pulled one of my lovely male colleagues to one side and had a stern word in his ear when he told a very competent and passionate report of his to “shut up you sound like my mother” . That sort of shit is never ever acceptable . Yet it gets melted out in increasing doses as you get older and more experienced

So if someone was, say, explaining cancer treatment to you, you wouldn't care if they were experts in cancer treatment and had been to medical school etc? You'd be equally happy with someone who had taught themselves on google?
Personally, I prefer to know the credentials of who is presenting information to me. Certainly, I wouldn't seek to denigrate anyone for their qualifications which I would assume they worked hard to achieve.

I'd want someone good at their job but I don't want a doctor full of themselves or opinionated.

I'd would expect them to explain why they are recommending a certain treatment and I may challenge them on it, ask about what the alternatives are etc.

A good doctor should be able to deal with that without getting defensive. If they reacted to that by telling me how great their medical degree is or that they were voted the best Consultant in the country, I wouldn't give a shit.

Like any other profession, there are incompentent doctors. I'm sure there are also incompetent people with PHDs so called experts should be willing to explain themselves.

TBF, I work in a job that nobody outside the profession is interested in. Nobody Googles what I do. I can see it would be different with something amateurs have a casual interest in but they are the idiots if you are right and they are wrong.

@Winebottle

I'm anti-experts. Nobody cares if you have a PHD, you still need to argue your case and explain your reasoning and your views and people will make their mind up on their merits.

Some men take an argument less seriously if it is coming from a woman which is wrong but I wouldn't take self proclaimed experts seriously man or woman.

People who are genuinely great at what they do don't need to shout about their qualifications because people respect and listen to them anyway.

🤦‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️ “I’m anti experts” Do you say that to your doctor? Your hospital consultant? Your dentist? The fireman who trying to put your house fire out… What a completely ridiculous position and so arrogant that you think yourself a complete judge of who is an expert based on just your own opinion There’s a phrase often used, “ only really stupid people think they are clever and those that are really cover know how stupid they are.” Or words to that effect

I'd want someone good at their job but I don't want a doctor full of themselves or opinionated.
It's really sad that there is a tendency in this country to consider those who are vocal and open about their qualifications and expertise as 'full of themselves'. It's really depressing.
As for being opinionated - well, it's often an experts job to offer an opinion!!

I'd would expect them to explain why they are recommending a certain treatment and I may challenge them on it, ask about what the alternatives are etc.

Like any other profession, there are incompentent doctors. I'm sure there are also incompetent people with PHDs so called experts should be willing to explain themselves

But according to you, when people do explain themselves they are considered full of themselves and opinionated!! They clearly can't win!!

So I was in a meeting , room full of men and me

About half way through my (male) boss speaks , quite forcefully

" you are sitting in s room with the world expert on this , why don't you just listen to what she says "

That wasn't me trying to ride an I'm the expert free card, that was him fed up of having to repeat everything I said , in some cases word for word , before some of the others could hear it

I work for an internet provider I've been asked by people if they can speak to "an engineer" when I myself am a 3rd line systems and infrastructure engineer. I am often the only female in the data centres when I visit and I've had some strange looks in my time!

I had a younger male boss once who had no clue about my area of expertise and definitely had an issue with middle aged women. He forced me to implement changes which I vociferously advised against and predicted the outcome if we proceeded. The only thing I was wrong about was the speed at which these changes caused everything to go pear shaped, costing the company a hell of a lot of money. He put me on a disciplinary and tried to blame me for his fuck up. Tosser.

I do hope you fought that tooth and nail, @VillanellesOrangeCoat. What an idiot.

This New Yorker cartoon came to mind as I read this thread, can't think why.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I do hope you fought that tooth and nail, *@VillanellesOrangeCoat*. What an idiot.

This New Yorker cartoon came to mind as I read this thread, can't think why.

I bloody love this!

@SpinsForGin

I'd want someone good at their job but I don't want a doctor full of themselves or opinionated. It's really sad that there is a tendency in this country to consider those who are vocal and open about their qualifications and expertise as 'full of themselves'. It's really depressing. As for being opinionated - well, it's often an experts job to offer an opinion!!

I'd would expect them to explain why they are recommending a certain treatment and I may challenge them on it, ask about what the alternatives are etc.

Like any other profession, there are incompentent doctors. I'm sure there are also incompetent people with PHDs so called experts should be willing to explain themselves

But according to you, when people do explain themselves they are considered full of themselves and opinionated!! They clearly can't win!!

Why is it depressing? Who wants to listen to people talk about how great they are? Demonstrate how great by doing a good job and gaining a good reputation.

And expressing an opinion doesn't make you opinionated.

Oh yes, as a another woman with a PhD in a specialist role I know and have had my male colleagues confirm to me that they put up with far less shit than I do. They still do get it as there really is a culture at the moment that promotes any random making spurious challenges against expert opinion. I was in a management training session recently where "deference to experts" was listed as a reason for bad decision making with the financial crisis being listed as an example. I called that one out straight away - it seems that overpaid, over-confident male executives are "experts" apparently. However, we women have to put up with all the sexist bullshit too on top of this anti-expert rhetoric.

That said, I do have to say that it is better than it was when I started my career where the general dismissiveness of me was far more widespread, however we now seem to have a small group of hard-line chauvinists who seem to be more openly hostile to women despite most men being much more respectful.

I am often the only female in the data centres when I visit and I've had some strange looks in my time!

And how many men need to comment on how unusual it is. At least our datacentre doors no longer have signs up about the risks of men working behind the doors. Obviously it was completely safe if I had been the one lifting floor tiles.

Why is it depressing? Who wants to listen to people talk about how great they are?Demonstrate how great by doing a good job and gaining a good reputation.

Demonstrating that you are qualified and hold a relevant qualification is not talking about how great you are. These add to your reputation and authenticity as an expert in a particular field.
For example, a PhD is something that takes years to complete is requires you to add new knowledge to your particular sector. It's part of what makes you an expert!

It's depressing because it seems frowned upon to be proud of your achievements.

It's depressing because it seems frowned upon to be proud of your achievements.

My dd has always excelled at school and comes across as being confident in her abilities. It’s amazing the number of (male) teachers who feel the need to try and stifle her or bring her down a peg or two. Her female teachers on the other hand think the world of her. The thing is, she’s outwardly confident but does need a lot of reassurance so this has really knocked her. It’s utterly wrong.

@Winebottle you appear to have a massive chip on your shoulder. Maybe Micheal Gove was right - perhaps the people have enough of experts?! 🤦

I agree, it's depressing. I'm a health care professional - majority female profession. It can be amazing the positive attitude change when a man appears. Usually a student you are teaching is with you and a patient assumes they are your boss. Happening less the older I get , a rare benefit to aging!

And expressing an opinion doesn't make you opinionated. It bloody well does when it's based on something read on social media, is based on urban myth, total misunderstanding, lack of information and flies in the face of all known science.

It does when the person doing the questioning sees the very fact that they are questioning a 'challenging', when the expert being 'challenged' expects to be questioned, sees it as a reasonable and essential part of diagnosis, procedure etc. and would be very cautious about continuing without ensuring the non-questioning client/patient had fully understood what had been said.

My dad is like that. Feels somehow vindicated if he asks a slew of questions about whatever. As if his questions, no matter how daft, have proven to whatever expert he is talking to, that he is a man of intellect, not to be trifled with. When what he actually displays is his belligerence and, quite often, fear of not knowing what is going on.

This is my everyday working experience. I work in an industry which is about 95% male. I've got a PhD in the subject area I work in. I am fed up of being talked over, ignored or called all sorts of shit for being assertive and confident. I see this from men across the spectrum; in fact, many of the younger men are considerably worse and more overt in their misogyny than my older colleagues. Then we get initiatives to get more women into the sector and they wonder why it isn't hugely successful!

My boss (female) had the same as @HoardingSamphireSaurus
She wrote a paper on a very complex issue which the company then used to run a seminar on the issue.
She sat next to a guy who then explained how complicated the issue was and how not many people understood it but he did, he then explained the issue to her using the paper she had written. (He came across more condescending then im making this sound)
She said she'll never forget his face when she was called up to speak as author of the paper

Well, I do not know if it has to do with being a woman or not, but I have sometimes spotted things that were wrong in projects I was involved, so I pointed it up.
Sometimes it has taken a bit of back and forth to sort it. Last time, I got an explanation that I did not understand. Next meeting, I asked again, same explanation. Well next day, I put my thinking in an email because it was not making any sense to me.
They corrected it. It was wrong.
But, I always get someone getting upset about these things. Nevermind how you say it. I am quite wary of saying it in the first place, but as I am getting older I am more worried about learning more, rather than getting people to like me, because they do not like me and never will!
So many times I think I should just change jobs!
I do make mistakes too, and if I get them spotted by someone else I will be annoyed that I missed it, but thankfull to the colleague that helped! I do not understand it.
Though not being liked in the work place leads to me having issues with other teams! They try to bulk more work on top of me, because they think it should be in my department! Seriously, without sitting in a meeting and discussing, this other manager had the nerve to tell me that he thought it was my department's job! And so we should do it. It is really really hard to grow in the workplace and be appreciated when you are like this.
I do, though, speak up in meetings. That is what meetings are for? Not to have a meeting after the meeting to say what should have been said in the meeting? But it looks like this is the wrong approach for most people on my workplace. I do not mean meetings with customers, by the way. It is all internal.

PP mentions younger people in the work place! Yes, I had issues with those. They are so focussed on climbing the ladder that ignored and undermined me constantly!

Anyway, well done to you all for being hard workers and doing your job well! And continue to use your expertise to move forward! No company can make money to pay all these angry people based on the wrong info and facts!

This annoys the hell out of me. I work in a team of 5, all the others are men. I pointed out a flaw in one of our processes - they all disagreed with me. I sent links to new guidance and even emailed the body concerned to clarify a few points - I passed all this information on. All shot down.

We had a review - why weren't we following X guidance?

I am changing jobs now.

My friend’s book on marine conservation was published last year. When she was writing it, she went to a dinner party where she was asked to explain the idea behind the book. A man who considers himself very green said, ‘Oh, that’s ridiculous’. The host then said, ‘I think you should listen to [my friend], she knows a lot about the subject’, to which the man replied, ‘Well, I don’t know anything about it but I know she’s wrong.’

Twunt.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Ah yes! You may drive it dear, but that just means you took notes at the meetings and handed out the To Do lists.

I was told much the same after winning a very prestigious award. One that was awarded on merit, not as a yearly thing, just if something was unusal an innnovative.

It had my name on it as lead design/researcher. My male colleagues were thrilled to have been involved and received their own mentions in the award.

One of them had a male boss who had wanted to lay claim to having been the impetus for the work, but couldn't if I was always being mentioned as the project lead. My boss just laughed. The funding was all in my name. Nobody ever thought it was anything other than my project, my team

This is a good one! LOL