Pay to be Poor

[LetterBug]

Got sent into an un- arrangement overdraft and it costs £30. So you are fined for having no money. Meaning when I'm paid I will be £30 down from the off. Meaning I will more likely run out of money again. costing another £30.

Pay to be poor.

@SirSamuelVimes

Terry Pratchett nailed this one:

The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time - and would still have wet feet.

I came here to post that - Samuel Vimes' boots theory of economics. Absolutely spot on.

So the tea sellers provided a service to get basics to the very poor, but somehow shouldn't be compensated themselves for going to all that effort?

You're missing the point. The service they provide only exists because the poor can't afford their basics. The service shouldn't exist.

@BoredZelda

I know of someone who goes to food and to save money. Not because they need it.

Assuming you mean food banks, most of these are based on referrals so this is unlikely.

Many well paying jobs come with free or subsidised work canteens, free business lunches, expense accounts etc.

But these are for all employees so the lowest paid workers have access to these too.

I’m pretty well off. I rarely have free food and if I do, it has nothing to do with my earnings.

OP is not wrong though, there are many, many ways that people are trapped in poverty because of how the world works. Key meters, bank charges, higher credit costs, ATMs which charge being mainly in poor areas, food deserts meaning they rely on smaller, more expensive stores etc. These things need to be legislated against if we want to help people out of poverty.

No the atmosphere charge. Me and DH used to have to walk half an hour to get to the free cash machine or pay £1.85 to access our own money.

I know banks aren't a business but when you need a bank account you you can't get paid or you can't pay your bills. its not fair. its not fair at all. And I am 20x more privileged than I was 10 years ago.

ILoveAllRainbowsx I remember changing banks because Nat West offered free banking till then you had to have £100 minimum in the bank. This was the 1980’s and £100 was a lot then. I was earning a pound an hour so got £40 per week at Tesco to save money to go to University.

FoxgloveSummers there was a saying where I worked if you got the free brought in working lunch that featured mini fresh fruit tart pastries and prawn sandwiches you knew you had made it.

Ask when Tom Hanks, Keanu Reeves, David Beckham etc last paid for a restaurant. I bet they get free shit everywhere they go.

Never met any of those people, but worked in a few establishments where A-list celebs (at the time) would stay or eat. They all paid their bills and usually left decent tips.

It was the z-list ones who wanted free stuff. “Influencers” unless really high profile are finding most of their requests for free stuff is turned down.

It is true that people who are very rich will have access to more free stuff, but a bit wide of the mark to suggest they never pay for anything.

No the atmosphere charge. Me and DH used to have to walk half an hour to get to the free cash machine or pay £1.85 to access our own money.

I know banks aren't a business but when you need a bank account you you can't get paid or you can't pay your bills. its not fair. its not fair at all. And I am 20x more privileged than I was 10 years ago.

Not sure what most of this means.

A few years back I was paying a lot and often to keep my old car roadworthy. My boyfriend at the time asked why I didn't just buy a new one that wouldn't need much maintenance.

It's such a privilege to not have to think any deeper than he did that day.

I honestly want to kill people who say not everyone needs to own, we will never again get a call giving us 2 months' notice to get out and find somewhere to live.

Whenever people come out with the 'you don't need to own your own home' line, they always seem to go quiet when you ask them who should own all of those homes, then? They invariably aren't thinking of a council/community-based thing - they always seem to envisage a standard private setup.

You aren't 'borrowing it from the earth' as you meander lightly through your merry existence: you're lining the pockets of somebody who apparently isn't unreasonable to own dozens, even hundreds of them, whilst you are unreasonable to want to own one.

As you say, it isn't just the fact of paying something like twice as much not to own a home; it's the security and stability that poorer folk and their families apparently aren't bothered about

@Judith0000

If you are too poor to run a car, shopping at Aldi, Lidls or Farmfoods becomes a nightmare, and they dont offer food delivery, so you have to pay more and shop at a more expensive supermarket such as Tesco or Asda.

We used to and we still do a whole shop of about £60/70 and walk home or bus it back. Arms used to be sore, I actually broke my pushchair that way. We used to bring an extra bag each for the kids to carry the bread or something not too heavy just because it freed up a couple of grams!

DH is on 10k more now a year than when we first started out and it still isn't enough for a car!

I would be able to be a carer of I had a car as its quite flexible, but I can't at the moment because we haven't even got the money for lessons.

Me and DH used to have to walk half an hour to get to the free cash machine or pay £1.85 to access our own money.

Even if you don't have an option but to use a cash machine that charges, the well-off can still mitigate that cost by getting £300 for a charge of £2 or so (so a 0.66% fee). When you only have £10 available in your account/overdraft, it costs you 20%. In fact, if you only have £10 available, you might not be allowed to access it at all, as that machine would require you to have £12 including their fee.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

In principle, I find interest charged on insurance premiums terribly unfair. If you buy a policy for a year in January, you cannot possibly claim on the element of the premium relating to future months before those months arrive. If you can't claim for the December element of your policy for 11 months, why on earth should you have to pay interest on it from January?

More disgusting than that, though, is the government cashing in on poorer people who can't afford their VED/road tax in one go. Especially considering that older cars generally attract much higher tax charges than the newer, less polluting vehicles, if you can afford to buy one. It's all automated, so it doesn't cost them any more in admin - it's just a way of hitting the less powerful who can't hit back.

These companies/government probably try to justify it as 'giving people a choice' - allowing them to decide if the flexibility of being able to hold on to their money for longer is worth the extra charge to them. In the real world, of course, there is no choice and poorer folk don't have that money upfront to invest/benefit from in the first place.

I think a lot of wealthier folk genuinely believe that poorer people are unwilling to make sacrifices, aren't smart at investing or just aren't good at budgeting. This is the case for some, but many, many less well-off people just never have the privilege to be in that position in the first place.

Great if you can exercise the discipline and self-control to give up buying treats and luxuries to use the money in a more productive way, but when you're struggling to buy the absolute basics, there simply is no leeway or chance to break free.

The reason there is interest on paying insurance monthly is because the insurance is effective from when you take it out and they are loaning you the rest of the money. It costs lenders to lend to you.

Weird about renting.
I have always rented, chosen where i live and enjoyed it, but then I havent felt forced to do it.

What surprises me is how anyone who is poor can afford to rent at all
Renting is expensive and more so than a mortgage. I earn well and could not afford to rent if i didnt. I have also generally had great landlords over the years and always chosen my own fuel tariff/billing situations and wouldnt accept a property that limited my choices.

How on earth anyone on a low income is affording to rent is beyond me, unless there are very low priced rentals out there (im in north west and cant see any). It is a pity there are no mortgage options available for people in this situation, it would be more affordable for them and still make the -parasites- banks happy.

Agree with most here, the less you earn/have, the more you will pay for simply existing.
I am often amazed at how many people on mumsnet are ignorant to this. I have never been poor, but it only takes a modicum of intelligence to grasp. I think people prefer to remain ignorant, it makes the world feel like a safer place, eh?

@Wokahontas

I realised this a few years ago too. If you are poor, you end up paying more.

It hit home with me when I got a puppy and was talking to the vet. I couldn't decide whether or not to get pet insurance. My DH says it is a scam. My vet asked if I could afford a £500 bill and if I could, not to get insurance, otherwise I needed to get it.

So, I would have paid £900 so far in insurance since I have had my dog. I have only ever had to pay out £100 at the vet for a problem, so I would be £800 worse off, if poorer.

My previously healthy dog has had £4500 of treatment since June. If we didn’t have pet insurance and/or could have afforded it anyway he would be dead and we would still have a bill for £2000. So no, it’s not a scam in that case. However, it is an example of how much harder life is if you are poor. If we couldn’t afford the £40 pm premium we would have had a huge bill to pay

@Floogal

The one I hate is people on low wages having to pay for DBS checks. Also public transport is so expensive, and it's usually people who can't afford to buy a car who end up using it

Have you seen the fair dodgers programme? about people not paying their fairs to get on the tube to work but I used to do that to get to school. My mom would give us our bus fair in 5ps and we would put a few in but keep the rest for the next day. Otherwise its an hour and a half walk for a young girl in the dark winter months. On the way home from school the kids used to pile into the bus soooooo fast so I used to be able to sneak on with the hoard and not pay.

I was so scared when they started putting inspectors on the bus! it was harsh because some kids couldn't afford a couple of quid to get to and from school and the bus went miles.

A few years back I was paying a lot and often to keep my old car roadworthy. My boyfriend at the time asked why I didn't just buy a new one that wouldn't need much maintenance.

That reminds me of when a friend of mine used to work in a tea shop at an attraction that's out of the way and not on a bus route - when we were in our late teens. Her Dad used to drop her off and pick her up and the tea shop manager - who didn't need the money at all but treated it as a little hobby to fill her days - genuinely asked her "Why does your Father always bring and collect you every day in the same old car?"

Erm, probably because he only owns one and isn't a car thief

On one occasion, she gave my friend a lift home as she was going that way and she seemed astonished, on seeing the terrace (of 8 houses), that my friend only lived in one small section of it!

I know my friend lived further than me and if she didn't have money for the bus she wouldn't go. She had 4 months off at one point and we were all surprised she finished school at all.
Not a good way to get her put of poverty is it?

Actually thinking of school, I spent a day in isolation because my shirt was dirty and I didn't have another one. I wore black trousers but not school trousers. I spent the whole day in isolation doing bare minimum near my gcses because we could only afford one skirt. I remember feeling embarrassed that the teachers thought I was purposely making a fashion statement.

If you are on a very low income or a household who works less than 16 hours a week then your child is eligible for only half the free nursery hours that the children from more wealthy families receive.

Poor 3/4 year olds get 15 hours of free nursery, and rich children get 30 hours a week.

www.suttontrust.com/a-fair-start-equity-in-access-to-early-years-education/

My city (not London) gives free bus passes to anyone who lives more than 3 miles away from their secondary school - I remember being really surprised when I realised not all towns did this.

The reason there is interest on paying insurance monthly is because the insurance is effective from when you take it out and they are loaning you the rest of the money. It costs lenders to lend to you.

Oh, I get the reasoning; but my argument is that, if you are (for want of a better word) 'renting' the risk cover from them for this current month, how is it costing them more to be providing the cover for future months now - any more than a landlord could claim that December's council tax and utility payments are costing them money NOW (that they are thus lending you) in January?

I understand that the policy is agreed for the year - and so, if you end up totalling your car in January and not replacing it, you still have to pay your policy as agreed each month for the rest of the year. I know they would say that they're spreading the risk over the year, but you could just as easily take out a special single-day policy (e.g. to share the driving with a friend on a very long trip in their car), write off the car and they would still pay out the same amount under that single day's cover.

I was thinking about this yesterday. It was largely bank charges that caused my spiral into debt years ago. Thankfully the CAB worked out repayment plans and helped me get out of it, I would probably have had to go bankrupt without their assistance.

When I was earning a decent wage I bought several things that I still use to this day. Good quality hairbrush, Mulberry leather wallet. Things that are very well made and could well outlast me.

Whereas when I was broke I would frequent shops like Primark. I took a Primark hold-all to a weekend wedding and the zip broke on the first day. I was wearing a pair of Primark slip on shoes when I got caught in the rain and they literally fell apart a few steps from my front door. When you have little money you can't afford quality and end up re-buying the same low quality items over and over.

I would advise anyone who can afford it to invest in quality now, because you never know when things might change, and anyone who is getting into debt, don't stick your head in the sand. Look for help right away.

@MLMshouldbeillegal

People who work at McDonald's get free food.

And if you haven't noticed, there has been a distinct lack of "corporate events" over the last 2 years.

I'm in corporate - we get sent deliveroo vouchers or given an expense budget to have a meal.

On one project, to say thanks, we got given a £100 food budget and sent 3 bottles of wine.

@BoredZelda
But if properties with key meters are the only ones available to you, in your budget, you can’t choose to replace it without the landlords permission. And ones with key meters are the cheaper properties available. I’ve rented many times over the years and it was only when I was moving out of budget accommodation that properties weren’t key meters.
Any landlord that told you that was acting unlawfully, you can get the meter changed.

@LittleMysSister

I always feel the same way when you see them on things like Can't Pay We'll Take it Away seizing people's work vans and stuff in order to repay debt. If people already have debt, how are they meant to get in a position to repay it when the things they need to work are taken away??

I do disagree with this point, despite agreeing in general that it's expensive to be poor.

To get to the point of goods being seized, you have to get a CCJ, often that means they didn't turn up and explain their situation. A court would have been favourable before that point to help with a payment plan based on affordability. It's making a rod for your own back.

Bailiff action following CCJs etc doesn't come out of the blue, and neither do the bailiffs on Can't Pay (usually).

The biggest irony (in case no one has already mentioned it) is bankruptcy, which costs £680. You couldn't make it up!