How would you characterize an independent woman?

[Yeswhatno]

I read/hear often women saying they are one.
I’m not sure I know what they mean about that.

What makes one independent?
What do they do/ don’t do, say?
What is their lifestyle like? Dating or not, what about marriage, can there be kids involve?

For me it would mean being financially and emotionally independent. One can date, be married, have 5 kids and still be independent. One can be single and childless and yet completely dependent.

Being independent has nothing to do with relationship status or kids but about whether or not someone relies on other to survive, both financially and emotionally.

You never hear of an independent man

Maybe not but you hear plenty about Mummy’s boys and cock-lodgers ie dependent men.

Independence requires cash, when you have that you can make choices, that is going to come from a career, a marriage, an inheritance or the state. Men usually have better wages, most are emotionally independant and it’s much easier to socialize because the risks are much less.

My primary headteacher once told my mum that 'she's very independently minded! I didn't like him very much and often followed my own path

I've followed a very independent life, got married, two kids and a full-time job - all my choices. I also go out regularly, playing in bands as an amateur musician. I'm quite headstrong and won't let anyone hold me back. DH is very laid back (thankfully!) and lets me get on with it. DS 16 calls me a SIM (strong independent woman)

I've had this said to me

"You will be OK, you are strong"

I tick the boxes for being an independent person

An independent woman is one who is not wholly or partly dependent on either a man or on the state for the roof over her head, the food on her plate or the clothes on her body. She earns her own living, pays for her own home and pays her own way.

Ah interesting. My DH died when our kids were 5 and 7 and I receive old-style widowed parents’ allowance as well as the child benefit which most parents receive. I have a good job and do 100% of what’s required at home and with my children, the eldest of whom has additional needs. There’s no one else to do any of this. Does my WPA mean I’m less independent than a woman who claims no benefits but isn’t the sole wage earner, and shares childcare and jobs around the house with a partner?

Thinking about it I don’t really care if I’m described as independent or not so perhaps no point in posing the question!

@DillonPanthersTexas

You never hear of an independent man

You may not but I have heard the expression plenty of times. Non independence such as iving at home/flat share above a certain age, not having a 'career' or being financially solvent, not having their own interests or strong social circles is seen as a negative.

I agree that's seen as a negative in men. Not sure they're seen as massively desirable in women either, but it's true women aren't judged on their careers and income like men are, just as men aren't judged on their looks like women are.

But I am honestly surprised you've heard the word "man" prefixed with "independent" so much. The actual term "independent man". Just as I don't think I've ever heard the term "family woman".

I define an independent woman as one who works and lives on her own either with or without children and pays for all her overheads herself.

But I am honestly surprised you've heard the word "man" prefixed with "independent" so much. The actual term "independent man". Just as I don't think I've ever heard the term "family woman".

Maybe it is regional thing then? I also remember seeing the expression quite a bit when I was online dating, plenty of women's profiles were seeking 'educated, funny, financially solvent independent men' or similar. As it has been alluded to on this thread already though even if that exact expression is not used there are plenty of negative phrases in circulation to describe men who are perceived to not be standing on their own two feet and reliant on others to get by in life. Sadly these days there is still an element of men being seen as providers and protectors (by women) and women being seen as in need of rescue or being looked after (by men).

@DillonPanthersTexas

But I am honestly surprised you've heard the word "man" prefixed with "independent" so much. The actual term "independent man". Just as I don't think I've ever heard the term "family woman".

Maybe it is regional thing then? I also remember seeing the expression quite a bit when I was online dating, plenty of women's profiles were seeking 'educated, funny, financially solvent independent men' or similar. As it has been alluded to on this thread already though even if that exact expression is not used there are plenty of negative phrases in circulation to describe men who are perceived to not be standing on their own two feet and reliant on others to get by in life. Sadly these days there is still an element of men being seen as providers and protectors (by women) and women being seen as in need of rescue or being looked after (by men).

Eh, I think that's rather different. It's a dating site and women are explaining what they want. In context, it makes sense. Obviously it doesn't have to turn you on.

It's very different to "independent man" being a commonly used term in everyday language because we have to add the connotation.

I'd say "independent woman" means confident, single, no kids and a good job. You can't be independent if you are in a relationship or have kids - too much compromise is needed. You can have casual sexual relationships but these can't be romantic or with an eye for a long term relationship.

@MorningStarling

I'd say "independent woman" means confident, single, no kids and a good job. You can't be independent if you are in a relationship or have kids - too much compromise is needed. You can have casual sexual relationships but these can't be romantic or with an eye for a long term relationship.

Is compromise the same thing as dependence?

Financially independent. There is no true independence without financial independence.

I am certainly not financially independent, I work part time and DH earns 5x what I do.but I have a lot of people in my life (DS, DSS and elderly parents) who are dependent on me to manage their lives, so as no one is doing that for me, doesn’t that make me independent?

I don’t think it’s just down to money, kids can be independent in their behaviour and they have no earning power. I always consider people who don’t follow the normal path or dress or act conventionally must be confident and independent.

Choice. An independent woman is a woman who makes choices for herself, wether it be the choice to remain childless, without a partner/spouse, or wether they choose to be a sahm.
I am not financially indecent, in that I'm a sahm who uses family money brought in by my working husband. Does that not make me independent? I have independence in spending that money, I don't have to ask what to spend and on what. Just because I made the choice to stay home with my child for a period of time doesn't mean I'm not independent.

@peboh

Choice. An independent woman is a woman who makes choices for herself, wether it be the choice to remain childless, without a partner/spouse, or wether they choose to be a sahm. I am not financially indecent, in that I'm a sahm who uses family money brought in by my working husband. Does that not make me independent? I have independence in spending that money, I don't have to ask what to spend and on what. Just because I made the choice to stay home with my child for a period of time doesn't mean I'm not independent.

Independence is not the same thing as choice, though. Choice is an output of being independent so there's a degree of overlap but you can exercise choice while not being independent.

And I'm sorry but you can't both be independent and a SAHM. You may have discretion in practice as to what you spend family money on and so you should but the bottom line is you are still ultimately dependent on money generated by another person. To some extent your ability to spend that money as you please is contingent on your holding up your part of the family "deal".

To be independent you have to be able to up sticks and leave completely at will and without any of that other person's money. You hopefully will never need to, but as long as you need to, you can't be independent.

@thepeopleversuswork I can up sticks and leave though. I have savings that I've had for years, money that is available to me on the chance that my dh and I were to separate, or something tragic happen. Just because I do not have my own income currently, does not mean that I don't have the finances needed should I leave. I have enough money that I would be able to move out with our dd, or stay in the family home and live for a period of time until I was able to find another job.

I guess another question to ask is why is Society these days obsessed with everyone being independent and alone. Society in the past used to be more centred on communities and families working together. This was seen as the idea to aspire to and still is jn some countries.

@Heartoverheadheadoverheart - I love this question. I feel this way. DH and I are what I'd describe as co-dependent. We really need each other because we both perform essential functions the other one can't do. I think it makes for a very strong bond in marriage. We'd both survive without each other but our lives would be less functional. I like that it's not just love that bonds us, but also need. Why not? I find it deeply relaxing that I don't have to strive (and fail) to be good at things I was born bad at. And so does he. We genuinely make a great team. But it's unfashionable to say so. Lots of people think that co-dependence is a sign of weakness and needs to be addressed as a problem.

@MorningStarling
I'd say "independent woman" means confident, single, no kids and a good job. You can't be independent if you are in a relationship or have kids - too much compromise is needed.

This really is the closest description what I thought being independent meant.

I mean if you have a husband paying half or more of your lifestyle how could that be independent.

Also I would say being emotionally independent counts.
Not needing to go over with someone what to do with their own life.

We reallyneedeach other because we both perform essential functions the other one can't do.

What are these functions that only one of you can do?

Someone who it doesn't even occur to ask such a question ie just living their life

To be independent you have to be able to up sticks and leave completely at will and without any of that other person's money. You hopefully will never need to, but as long as you need to, you can't be independent.

Ok, so what if you inherited a load of money that allowed you the freedom to upsticks and leave, buy a house outright and live alone, would that still be considered independent, as it would be dependent entirely on wealth created by someone else who is no longer alive, rather than a living partner?

I do know people IRL who are able to live alone due to inheritance and sheer financial luck with very minimal input, who would probably call themselves independent despite expecting others (usually SAHM daughters and DILs considered here to be “dependent”) to help them at a cost to their potential financial independence.

I have enjoyed reading all of your replies.

I guess another thing that has crossed my mind whilst reading this thread... so a women can't be independent if they are dependent on a man's income but the man is seen as independent if they are dependent on the woman having the children full time through the working week?

Someone also said an independent woman is one that is not dependent on man or state but also prepared to leave if a man does not contribute 50/50 in all aspects of life. What if that being prepared to leave then leaves her dependent on the state though, even if she worked?

So, essentially an independent women is just an incredibly rich women because when you have money you are less reliant?

Either way, I stick by my position that I think we should accept that part of being human and therefore being entangled in relationships means that we should focus more of our attention on how we can be better at working together.