How would you characterize an independent woman?

[Yeswhatno]

I read/hear often women saying they are one.
I’m not sure I know what they mean about that.

What makes one independent?
What do they do/ don’t do, say?
What is their lifestyle like? Dating or not, what about marriage, can there be kids involve?

No one who is dependent on the state can be truly independent.

Says who? I'd class a single mum on benefits looking after herself and her kids more independent than a man who was a "breadwinner" but couldn't operate a washing machine. Yet he would never have his independence questioned.

@meh12

No one who is dependent on the state can be truly independent.

Says who? I'd class a single mum on benefits looking after herself and her kids more independent than a man who was a "breadwinner" but couldn't operate a washing machine. Yet he would never have his independence questioned.

Because she is dependent on the way the political wind blows. He or anyone not being able to operate a washing machine is not going to be impacted by legislative changes. Trying to make it out as anything else is disingenuous and a disservice to women. Benefits are a safety net, not a route to independence. And absolutely should not be glorified as such. Girls should be taught to do absolutely all they can do to avoid that life of dependency.

[quote sst1234]@XDownwiththissortofthingX
Weird logic. No logic at all actually. Being employed is not the same as receiving benefits. No one who is dependent on the state can be truly independent.[/quote]
Being employed = being 'dependent' on your employer for your income.

Whether you are in receipt of income from a salary you earn, or from the State in the form of Welfare, you are still 'dependent' on both in order to pay your way. What is the opposite of 'independent' if not 'dependent'?

If you are going to seriously claim that women in receipt of welfare can not be independent, then the only women who can possibly be truly independent are those who employ themselves and rely on absolutely nobody else for their income. Even then, you could stretch it and contend that they are, in most cases, 'dependent' on custom, trading with others etc for their income and independence.

What about women who work, receive a salary, and also receive assistance from the State? What about pensioners who receive only a State pension?

The assertion that women who receive welfare are not independent is nonsense. Employed women are no less 'dependent' on their income, it just comes from another source.

Because she is dependent on the way the political wind blows.

And any employed women is dependent on the stability of the economy and their employer? That's just as likely to change as benefits are. If independence is defined by finances as you say I don't see how an employed woman is independent if she is reliant on an employer, like the other PP said. There is more to independence than the source of finance.

I'd consider myself independent, mostly down to: not seeking validation of men for my self worth; choosing my own path in education and employment; making own free choice in terms of marriage and parenthood; financial savvyness and own resources (as well as shared with partner); independent of thought and expression. So it's a state of mind as much as anything else. It also means I never take this independence for granted , as most women in the world don't have the freedom to experience this.

@meh12

Because she is dependent on the way the political wind blows.

And any employed women is dependent on the stability of the economy and their employer? That's just as likely to change as benefits are. If independence is defined by finances as you say I don't see how an employed woman is independent if she is reliant on an employer, like the other PP said. There is more to independence than the source of finance.

Are you new to MN? You must have missed the daily threads on here from women lacking financial independence. Unfortunately you can’t eat other types of independence.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX
You can keep stretching the bizarre analogies. Why stop there. For example, a woman is never independent really because she relies on plants for oxygen, and the sun for enabling photosynthesis in plants.

@sst1234 nope been here for years, I just don't think independence can be defined by finances alone and I think you're being quite misogynistic actually. I think it's more nuanced than you're making out, I know plenty of well earning people who are far more dependent than some less earning or financially challenged people.

[quote meh12]@sst1234 nope been here for years, I just don't think independence can be defined by finances alone and I think you're being quite misogynistic actually. I think it's more nuanced than you're making out, I know plenty of well earning people who are far more dependent than some less earning or financially challenged people.[/quote]
Ah that’s it. It’s misogyny. I mean who knew that women being free of the biggest constraint that they have faced since the dawn of time was misogyny. Oh, well that’s sorted then.

@meh12 and @XDownwiththissortofthingX are clearly the same person 😂😂
Anyways… let’s go back to the topic.

Go all of you independent women! So much respect all of you. X

[quote sst1234]@XDownwiththissortofthingX
You can keep stretching the bizarre analogies. Why stop there. For example, a woman is never independent really because she relies on plants for oxygen, and the sun for enabling photosynthesis in plants.[/quote]
There's no need to stretch anything. The basic point is that it's totally insufficient to contend that independence is defined by financial means alone, because as I've already shown, everyone is 'dependent' on someone else at some point in the chain in order to derive their income.

I notice you dodged the point about in-work women who receive welfare.

Huh? Dodged what? It’s quite simple really. In work benefits of any kind make people dependent. It’s an indictment of the low pay culture that has been deliberately created in this country over the last 20 years.
It’s all well and good coming up with philosophical arguments about independence of types other than financial. Like I said earlier, you cannot eat other types independence. Let’s not kid women by telling them how great it is to feel warm and fuzzy and not want to be financially independent above other types independence. It’s disingenuous and plays well in wellness columns, not in real life.

I have Destiny Child's Independent Women in a loop in my head ...

Right, so theoretically two women, both earning the same salary in the same role, one claims the in-work benefit she is entitled to, the other does not claim.

In your eyes the first is independent, but the second is not?

@Yeswhatno

I read/hear often women saying they are one. I’m not sure I know what they mean about that.

What makes one independent?
What do they do/ don’t do, say?
What is their lifestyle like? Dating or not, what about marriage, can there be kids involve?

It's a word in the dictionary, do you not know what it means?

Goes where they like, with whom they like, without needing permission.
Has their own money, their own job. Doesn't rely on anyone else to live.
Doesn't spend all day worrying what other people think of them or trying to copy others; is not dependent on approval or admiration.
Of course there can be kids. There can be marriage. You just don't erase your whole identity.

@blueshoes

All the women, who independent
Throw your hands up at me
All the honeys, who making money
Throw your hands up at me
All the mommas, who profit dollars
Throw your hands up at me
All the ladies, who truly feel me
Throw your hands up at me

Sorry, that should obviously be the other way around

non-claimant - independent, claimant - not independent.

Right, so theoretically two women, both earning the same salary in the same role, one claims the in-work benefit she is entitled to, the other does not claim.

In your eyes the first is independent, but the second is not?

No, it's the other way round, the first one is not independent but the second one is.

Interesting question!

Googled and found this

“A woman who pays her own bills, buys her own things, and does not allow a man to affect her stability or self-confidence.”

No, it's the other way round, the first one is not independent but the second one is

Yup, error on my part, corrected in the follow-up post.

But to address the point -

So all circumstances are the same, but simply because the second woman chooses not to collect a benefit she is entitled to, she is considered independent whereas her counterpart is not?

I'd call that stupidity, not independence.

@CantStartaFireWithoutaSpark

The shoes on my feet (I bought it)
The clothes I'm wearing (I bought it)
The rock I'm rocking (I bought it)
'Cause I depend on me if I want it
The watch I'm wearing (I bought it)
The house I live in (I bought it)
The car I'm driving (I bought it)
I depend on me (I depend on me)

I think @blueshoes just won this thread

@XDownwiththissortofthingX
Your points are making less and less sense. But let’s see. Benefits are means tested. If someone earns enough to not be entitled to any benefits, how are they stupid? They are simply not entitled as they are independent enough to not need the financial assistance.

Rightly or wrongly, in a capitalist society, independence does largely come down to what kind of lifestyle you can afford to give yourself single-handedly. That goes for everyone, men and women. Plenty of young single men with well off parents are given money for house deposits, cars etc.

I think with independence in women specifically, aside from money it is a mindset. You see so many posts on here from women who can’t assert their needs and boundaries because they put their partner and children before themselves all the time, or say they were raised to think being a woman was about seeing to everyone else before you think about yourself. An independent woman puts herself first. She would be able to support herself (and children if she has them) without her partner, has the strength to walk away from any relationship that doesn’t make her happy, asserts her needs and takes time to do things that contribute to her wellbeing. She’s not scared of the thought of living alone or moving somewhere totally new, and she doesn’t care how other people perceive her. She’d rather be be true to herself than be nice all the time. She wouldn’t mind if she left a relationship and didn’t meet another partner, or was long-term single. She indulges her whims and thinks her needs are important. She would expect her partner to do 50% minimum parenting, life admin and emotional labour.

I would agree with TedMullins.

In a capitalist society, an independent woman is basically one who has 'fuck off' money and LTB freedom.