To ask that we stop looking for excuses for horrific child abuse and murder?!

[Dinotruxagain]

Sparked by the murder of little Arthur and the threads I'm seeing trying to look for reasons that the abuse took place.

As a now adult survivor of pretty horrific child abuse , (physically ending in hospital visits) emotional and mental abuse, basically the works.
I find it so very upsetting that people are looking for the generational link, do you understand how that leaves us feeling when it comes to our own parenting?

I now have a child, DS4, but for many decades I was terrified that I would repeat the same pattern with my own child.
It took a lot of therapy to come to the realisation that I, and I alone, controlled my life and my behaviour.

We are not all destined to repeat the mistakes of our parents, yes, we've been damaged but it doesn't mean it's ' rare' to parent well in later life.

My own mother, (father wasn't around) was one of 7 siblings, all perfectly normal happy families.
She didn't have an abusive childhood, nothing different was done in her upbringing compared to her siblings.
She was the only one who turned out to be an abusive person, outward appearance of a wonderful human being, unless of course you were either my brother or I.
Yes, our abuse was reported to social services, we were not believed and returned back to her time and time again. Her job?... she was a social worker.

I'm not sure why I'm posting this, I guess that the recent threads have sparked it but I just wanted to say we're not all destined to repeat the same cycle.
We can, and are good parents despite our upbringing.
Please remember that when you are looking for links, some people are just horrible, horrible people.

OP, it's natural for humans to look for reasoning in these situations. This isn't your mum. It's not the same. Stop taking another child's abuse personally.

So sorry you had to endure that as a child. You are, of course, right. There is NO excuse for child abuse. EVER. If you bring a child into the world you are fully responsible and accountable for how you treat them. No question. You deserved better and should have been protected. And, of course, you are not your past. You can chose a different path. I’m so glad you have changed the trajectory.

I do think, though, that asking ‘how on earth did a human being come to a point where they could treat a child so heinously?’ is important. Not to get them off the hook. Not even to empathise with them. Certainly not as an excuse. But to see how it could be prevented.

Most of the parents I’ve worked with (never abusive to the extent of recent events, but doing some emotional harm nevertheless) didn’t set out to be like that, have histories themselves of difficult childhoods and are doing their best. It’s not good enough - their best - but through intervention they heal their own past hurts and go on to be the parents they truly want to be. Relationships with children are healed and resilience built. I wish my family had had access to the same when I was a child.

We couldn’t do that work if we didn’t at least try to understand how a parent can get to the point of being abusive. We can do that and still believe fully that children come first, and that parents should be held fully responsible and accountable. We can do that and still feel rage about the experience for the child. Shock and horror at recent events. We can do that and still hold enormous empathy for the child’s experience and put their well-being first. It honestly, isn’t excuse making for parents when I try to understand how they got to the place they are in. It’s an absolute desire to make things better for the child.

Surviving childhood abuse and going on to build a good life and be a good parent is an amazing feat. Awe inspiring.

I agree, OP.

Like you, I was afraid I will repeat mistakes of my parents with my children.

It took me a lot to realize that I'm not my mother, that I'm not my father and I have a choice what kind of a parent I want to be.

I do the same as you because I don't want my children to go through hell I've been through when I was a child.

No spanking or any kind of physical violence in this house, no shouting, screaming, and I always apologize to my child when I do something wrong. Always.

I'm the happiest when my little boy who is 7 tells me that one day when he grows up he wants to have a family that is just like ours.

OP, I'm really sorry for everything you've been through and your little boy is happy to have you as a mum.

I completely agree op but not everyone is on the same page and I think it's really important to talk about and explore what lead to this point. If we don't as a society understand it how can we watch out for it?
I think sometimes it is as simple as a perp knowing no better.
But as you say that's not an excuse and in no way is in inevitable.

I had a horrific childhood in some ways. And so did my mother.

And I’m terrified of even passing on a drop of that to my dcs.

So I think it is important to understand reasons because then it could be prevented. I would rather time and money was spent on prevention instead of time on punishment - because by then it’s too fucking late and a child has died or suffered terribly.

It’s easy to call people evil monsters when the reality is, they are human beings with some similarities to most of us. Something turns them down a terrible path and I’d rather that did not happen. Ultimately it’s about saving children from a terrible fate.

Normal people can do extremely evil things, i remember the Yugoslavian war, a much loved and respected head teacher became a leader of a Serbian murder squad.
That country was a very popular destination for tourists from all over the world, yet within a few short months ordinary people did terrible to things to each other.

People are not a product of their up bringing nor are born evil, we all have free will.

Many parents who suffered abusive childhoods are determined not to repeat the pattern. Some parents/people never take responsibility for their behaviour. They blame their parents, their partner, children, stress etc for their bad decisions or behaviour.

I know many people who didn’t repeat abuse patterns and others who had much easier loving, stable childhoods who were abusive, neglectful parents

I'm sorry all that happened to you OP, and yes, I agree, we do not all end up.repeating the mistakes of our parents (my parents were abusive and I'm trying hard too, to be a good mum for my children).

However, I do not (and will never) believe any child is born evil/bad. I 100% believe our experiences in life mould and shape us into the person we become.

I do believe some people are born evil.

She might have been a crap mother but her own children weren't treated as badly as Arthur.

Pure, unadulterated wickedness. And she knew what she was doing.

I know it must come across as awful when people look for reasons, but I genuinely think it's because most of us can't fathom abuse like that taking place just because someone is evil. It's a scary thought for a lot of people. Like if there's a reason, then there's an explanation.

Sometimes there just isn't a reason. Sometimes people are just downright evil. And I believe that is a terrifying fact to grasp, so making up a reason (although not justifying it), allows people to go "ah yeah but she was abused as a child so that's why".

I'm NOT justifying abuse. There are people who were abused / had awful things happen and who would never do that. I'm only attempting to answer your question.

Arthur's stepmother was at one point an innocent newborn baby. I hate to think what happened to her as she was raised because her behaviour is so extreme and sadistic
Some people are sadistic psychopaths. I believe they are wired like that, it's not upbringing, its more a disability. I don't think there is evidence they "become" like that because of something that happened to them.

There is evidence there's a genetic basis for psychopathy and some suggestions it is a result of a damaged brain

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15386740

I don't know what the answer is. It must be almost impossible to be a social worker, dealing with families where they don't have the skills to be effective parents for whatever reason, whilst simultaneously needing to diffetentiate that from those who are sadistic child abusers.

@Courtier

OP, it's natural for humans to look for reasoning in these situations. This isn't your mum. It's not the same. Stop taking another child's abuse personally.

That's harsh! I'm not taking what happened to little Arthur personally. It's absolutely horrific what has happened to him by those vile excuses for human beings.

The point I was making is that sometimes there is no reason for people being the way the are.
It cannot be explained.
It's understandable people are looking for reasons, I get it.
I spent 20 years looking for them, there were none and this constant " well she/he was possibly abused themselves" thought process doesn't actually help anyone. It just leaves us who have worked through it wondering if we are destined to repeat the same mistakes. (We are not!)

It would do more good if people reported abuse when seen, not thinking its not my business etc.
That we actually funded social services properly, and we ALL took safeguarding seriously.

I wasn't being specific about Arthur , although the current case brought it to my mind.

@Nanny0gg

I do believe some people are born evil.

She might have been a crap mother but her own children weren't treated as badly as Arthur.

Pure, unadulterated wickedness. And she knew what she was doing.

I don’t because that absolves them to some degree, creates a dangerous logic and is a bit defeatist. If you write them all off as evil then nothing could have been done right?

The point I was making is that sometimes there is no reason for people being the way the are. It cannot be explained

I just find that so defeatist.

I’ve asked questions about why my mum is how she is and I think it’s a combination of her mental state (she had undiagnosed bipolar), her upbringing (she had no parents after the age of 4) and lack of support around her. Some of it is circumstances which made her who she is.

I don’t understand it all, but I don’t think it was inevitable.

I’m just sad she didn’t get the support she needed when she needed it. Not everyone needs that support but those that do, should be able to obtain it.

People are attempting to understand and there is nothing wrong with that.

I am someone who survived a very sexually violent and abusive childhood with regular beatings, starvation and to the point my stepfather tried to strangle me.

How am I as a parent? Well I have never done any of those things but I know I have times when I have struggled to connect to any humans due to my mental health. It’s taken years of therapy and along the way I have met many seriously mentally ill people, mainly women as much of the time has been in a Mother and Baby unit or on a women’s ward.

What happens to children is so terrible it’s good that people are discussing it. It’s an issue that needs as much airing as possible.

@AdamRyan

Arthur's stepmother was at one point an innocent newborn baby. I hate to think what happened to her as she was raised because her behaviour is so extreme and sadistic Some people are sadistic psychopaths. I believe they are wired like that, it's not upbringing, its more a disability. I don't think there is evidence they "become" like that because of something that happened to them.

There is evidence there's a genetic basis for psychopathy and some suggestions it is a result of a damaged brain

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15386740

I don't know what the answer is. It must be almost impossible to be a social worker, dealing with families where they don't have the skills to be effective parents for whatever reason, whilst simultaneously needing to diffetentiate that from those who are sadistic child abusers.

Great now child murderers are being bunched in with people with disabilities.

I think people are trying to make sense of it which is fine but some don’t really think it through before making moronic statements such as being a murderer is like being disabled 🙄

@HoseMeDownWithHolyWater

Some people are just cunts. No excuses needed.

This is kind of my view. Of course in a lot of cases, an abuser will have a history of being abused. But more people who suffer abuse don't go on to abuse others.

I don't like allowing headspace for the reasons why someone like her does what she does. I'd never get my head around it.

But it is important to understand that there are people out there like her and learn to recognise the signs so we can help vulnerable people escape.

I understand the motivation behind wanting to know why these terrible things happen, but it can sound a bit like minimising the perpetrators actions.

I suffered neglect as a child, and while I don’t blame my mother (because she was seriously mentally ill at the time)- I remember hearing people say that children who were badly treated will grow up to treat their kids badly and it scared me. It made it sound like an inevitability, which of course it’s not.

@ronniz “I think people look for excuses as a reassurance that they will be shielded from bad things.”

This, exactly! People see something horrific in the news and want to reassure themselves it would never happen to them/their children. So they blame the upbringing, or they blame single mothers, just so they can feel reassured that “this could never happen to me or anyone I know, I’m not like them”.

Of course as an adult she is responsible for her behaviour but it would be helpful to be aware of how people become so twisted so there can be appropriate interventions.

The more research that is done on personality disorders, the more evidence there is of a genetic basis. There is not any real evidence that it is negative experiences that cause people to become like this. With antisocial-sociopathic disorder, what naive people believe are "appropriate interventions" can actually make the problem worse.

What we need is more awareness among the caring professions of the nature of personality disorders, and how disordered people can often present as extremely charming and "nice". And that they are perfecty capable of lying about having experienced abuse as children in order to gain sympathy.

I agree OP. My parents both had very tough upbringings. Both very poor , my Dad's parents died young and he was in and out of care and my mum had an abusive alcoholic father. They are both fantastic parents and grandparents, and if anything their experiences as children have driven them throughout their lives to want better for me and my brother. I'm sorry for what you went through as a child, you're out of it now and free to enjoy your own family x

@Nanny0gg

I do believe some people are born evil.

She might have been a crap mother but her own children weren't treated as badly as Arthur.

Pure, unadulterated wickedness. And she knew what she was doing.

mmmm its the old nature vs nurture isn't it?

I believe that once you dehumanise someone, then that enables another human being to do what they like to them.

Look at how we view migrants and their deaths either in the channel or the Mediterranean, no one seems to be too bothered because we do not see them as humans, just like us, anymore - 3 children drowned, yet no outrage.

@YourenutsmiLord

1-2 children die each week from abuse from DPs. That has remained steady for years. I would say the problem is that people including cruel parents, have human rights so it's extremely hard to remove children from bad parents.

Supposedly it’s ‘child first’ but actually, it’s adults’ human rights first, child safety be damned

@kesstrel

Of course as an adult she is responsible for her behaviour but it would be helpful to be aware of how people become so twisted so there can be appropriate interventions.

The more research that is done on personality disorders, the more evidence there is of a genetic basis. There is not any real evidence that it is negative experiences that cause people to become like this. With antisocial-sociopathic disorder, what naive people believe are "appropriate interventions" can actually make the problem worse.

What we need is more awareness among the caring professions of the nature of personality disorders, and how disordered people can often present as extremely charming and "nice". And that they are perfecty capable of lying about having experienced abuse as children in order to gain sympathy.

Sorry but that is nonsense. There are acres of research linking childhood abuse with becoming an abuser. And no-one is born with a personality disorder.

I'm sorry for what you went through. I don't think people are looking for excuses, they are looking for reasons and triggers to try and stop it happening again. For example, lockdown was clearly a factor in this case. That does not in any way excuse the vile action of the two perpetrators. But it might help schools and social services think about keeping up better contact with children who are not bn school for any reason.