To ask how schools decide what ‘Target Grades’ they give yr 7 kids?

[Starcup]

Posting here for traffic here. DC got report and ‘GCSE target grade’ were all the same, everything from art, music, Maths… all the same target grade in year 7.

There is a a different category saying ‘on target’ so teachers can write yes or no but it looks like the target grades have been set by some means and the teacher decides whether the kids are on target to achieve their target grades.

I’ve tried to ask a couple the teachers but the answer is never an actual answer, it’s always ‘well various ways’.

My question is, just because someone is good/bad at maths, it doesn’t mean they are going to be the same in every other subject.

Had there been a mixture of target grades I would assume the teachers would have looked over homework, class work, test scores and made a rough judgement, but I don’t think that’s necessarily happened otherwise all the grades would be a bit different. (Who is exactly the same standard across the board?)

DC didn’t do actual SATS in year 6 because of covid though they done mock ones and done well.

Ate there any teachers or parents that know? Do they do IQ tests or something then try to predict a GCSE grade but they don’t want to tell us?….

Just trying to understand so I can try to keep DC on track because the grades seem ridiculously high and I don’t want DC to feel like a failure if they end up with ‘Not on target’ and I think this will happen in some subjects, as DC has never done music in their life…

The grades are all the same - 8’s

Music was just an example….

Did they do CAT tests?
Keep asking. DD’s we’re the opposite - really low so she was ‘on target’ with no effort. They’ve since been changed.

In my experience it is based on SATs and then on the schools own tests completed when in year 7.

Our year 7s do CATS scores, then the SATS scored and lots of other data- our school uses the Fischer Family Trust (FFT) to calculate this, worth googling it or ask your child’s school how these grades are calculated!

Quite unusual for all grades to be the same!

There is no standard method. Each school does its own thing.

Quite unusual for all grades to be the same!

Quite usual in my experience, particularly ks3 and even more so yr7

Yeah it's a nonsense, you and your ds will just need to develop the right mindset to cope with it.

So at our school the grades are based on CAT scores. Ds1 scored very highly so his target grade is 9 across the board. So for the past 5 years his reports have been a symphony of reds and oranges as he fails to hit it and "only" gets a 6 or 7 or 8 (depending on the subject). You just have to learn to blank it out and use actual performance and effort to measure progress.

@CarrieBlue

Since secondaries are now measured by progress made they can’t actually set their own target grades! Otherwise all the target grades would be made super low to show a high progress made.

@parrotonmyshoulder

Did they do CAT tests? Keep asking. DD’s we’re the opposite - really low so she was ‘on target’ with no effort. They’ve since been changed.

They didn’t say, so I don’t know, but I’m suspecting something similar.

It’s as if they’ve decided that if a child has done well, average, not so well, in these types of tests, that’s get will be at the same level in everything, which is unlikely.

I think it can be troublesome on both ends of the scales like what you’re saying. My DC is going to think they aren’t doing well if they get ‘not on target’ but imo the target seems unattainable

Sounds like they are using a flight path model based on KS2 teacher assessments or CAT test outcomes. If they were assessed as working at greater depth/higher level in primary across reading, writing and maths in primary that would account for the high targets and the fact that they're all the same suggests that the school is going for quite a broad brush approach.

Just don't worry about it, is my advice. The most important thing is that the teachers explain how to do the next thing that will improve their work. The whole tracking system is usually a bit of a fudge until they get to Y10.

In normal years and many schools, targets are based on SATS results. However, because SATS only tests reading, writing and maths, these results are then extrapolated to cover everything else! My son scored very highly in his SATS , I was dragged in to his secondary school so they could express their concerns that he was behind target in art, PE and a couple of other areas. I had to explain that, as well as having ASD ( which meant he struggled in lessons where group activities went towards the assessment ( ie group performances in music) he also had dyspraxia and setting him a target of A in art and PE was, frankly always going to be something of a stretch! They ended up just ignoring those subjects and giving him a "turning up" grade😁

It's done in a very silly way, based on one set of test scores, and has been for a long time.

At school I was an academic achiever so my predicted grades were high - including for music, art, PE and DT. I have a physical disability which meant I was bottom of the class in all of these. It was bizarre and very demotivating.

In our school it's based on end of KS2 and CATS. An average is taken between English and Maths and applied across the board.

As far as I know, we can neither set, nor amend target grades, certainly not as an individual classroom teacher. Primaries who really push their kids for high SATS results beyond their natural abilities really set the kids up for a tough time of it at secondary. Looks good on their figures though...

Similar here. High predicted grades, all the same despite hugely different aptitude for maths, art, music, etc.
I remember his first report in Y7 last year, I was shocked at his great predicted grades, then read the next column where he was already behind in nearly every subject.
School rewards students for hitting their targets each report, he is struggling to do that.
However, he is progressing nicely and I am hoping that that's the important thing in the long run.

As others say, it's different in every school in terms of how they are calculated and its likely that the you are getting vague answers from staff because they don't actually know beyond 'computer says so'. In my experience most staff don't pay much attention to them in ks3 because they are pointless.

In relation to music, which happens to be my subject, almost all students are below target according to their target grades. I do try to explain to my students that there is a difference between where the data for English and Maths says they should be and where I expect them to be in reality to be 'on target'. I encourage students who are worried or whose parents are worried to get in touch and I'm happy to discuss indivual progress. I also feed back to SLT that these sorts of reports are unhelpful for parents and damaging for some students.

It's not much fun being the Music teacher either, when kids who did amazingly in Maths/English at age 11 have targets of 8/9 but can't play an instrument or sing in tune. I have asked my SLT how exactly they are going to manage the 30% performance that GCSE Music requires.

To be fair to the school, Art, Music, Drama & PE are treated separately, but the bloody projected grades are still used. It makes us look like brilliant teachers when the kid who is projected a 6 is on target for a 9 though, so it's not all bad. I had one unfortunate episode where a dad at a parents' evening berated me for "only" giving a target grade of a 6 when everyone else put 8/9 as it meant I was a crap teacher. I simply asked what his plans were for the 30% performances and what resources they would use for the 30% composing.

@OnceuponaRainbow18

The school may have government imposed targets forced on them but each school decides what target a child is given based on their own recipe. They also decide the progress made towards the target. Some give ‘working at’ grades as if the child were sitting a gcse in yr7. Some give ‘on/above/below’. Some give gcse grades based on if the child continues to work as they have been.

Utter nonsense all round.

Dc 2&3 didn't do Sat's but had predicted Sat's plus sat tests in year 7.
We don't get grades till year 9. So just get working at/above/below. It's really frustrating because my Dt are very academic so have been given 7 (top school grade at) and been told they'd expect 8-9s in most subjects, however they aren't good across the board so in pe/music/ art and drama graded a 7 but theyd never get that so reports always show working below expectations which is really not helpful for a child to be told when they are putting in the effort that they are not working hard enough. Yet a child who was graded a 4 in art and working at that level gets told they are doing well, a child working at a 6 but has an expected grade 7 is working below expectations. It all seems very wrong. Our system also does not take into account life events during secondary education. So Dc1 only attended school about 75% in years 8-10 due to poor health /treatment but the predicted grades were never altered to reflect this. Dc did amazingly considering and passed all gcses grades 4-6 but was consistently told working below expectations.

@OnceuponaRainbow18

Our year 7s do CATS scores, then the SATS scored and lots of other data- our school uses the Fischer Family Trust (FFT) to calculate this, worth googling it or ask your child’s school how these grades are calculated!

Quite unusual for all grades to be the same!

That’s my thoughts too. We all have strengths and weaknesses. Strange set up imo

@Porcupineintherough

Yeah it's a nonsense, you and your ds will just need to develop the right mindset to cope with it.

So at our school the grades are based on CAT scores. Ds1 scored very highly so his target grade is 9 across the board. So for the past 5 years his reports have been a symphony of reds and oranges as he fails to hit it and "only" gets a 6 or 7 or 8 (depending on the subject). You just have to learn to blank it out and use actual performance and effort to measure progress.

This is exactly what I suspect will happen. If the bar is set too high, then it’s likely to result in ‘failure’ because they can’t sustain these marks across the board. (Obviously they aren’t failing but you know what I mean lol)

Schools use software to automatically generate targets. Usually based on SATS. But for the past couple of year they will probably have used CAT scores which yes, are basically IQ tests. They do not reflect individual strengths & weaknesses.

(I mean the targets don’t take into strengths & weaknesses in certain subjects)

[quote OnceuponaRainbow18]@CarrieBlue

Since secondaries are now measured by progress made they can’t actually set their own target grades! Otherwise all the target grades would be made super low to show a high progress made.[/quote]
Progress is based on KS2 SATS results not targets the secondary set.

Both DS were given predicted end grade 9 for German in year 7 due to great SATS. They'd never spoken a word of German in their life.
DS1 then went on to be predicted all A at A level due to really good GCSE results. One of these predictions was for maths at which he'd got a 7 at GCSE. No way on God's earth was that ever going to translate to A at A level. We ignored it, he came out with a B but officially worked 'below expected' for two years.

CAT tests or primary school/year 6 tests.

To me, this kind of thing is useless and destructive.

It is really for the school to assess its teaching and be assessed against other schools.

Ultimately it is a close-to-useless tool in actual prediction and sharing it with parents and pupils leads to either shattering people’s confidence or complacency and smugness.