To ask how schools decide what ‘Target Grades’ they give yr 7 kids?

[Starcup]

Posting here for traffic here. DC got report and ‘GCSE target grade’ were all the same, everything from art, music, Maths… all the same target grade in year 7.

There is a a different category saying ‘on target’ so teachers can write yes or no but it looks like the target grades have been set by some means and the teacher decides whether the kids are on target to achieve their target grades.

I’ve tried to ask a couple the teachers but the answer is never an actual answer, it’s always ‘well various ways’.

My question is, just because someone is good/bad at maths, it doesn’t mean they are going to be the same in every other subject.

Had there been a mixture of target grades I would assume the teachers would have looked over homework, class work, test scores and made a rough judgement, but I don’t think that’s necessarily happened otherwise all the grades would be a bit different. (Who is exactly the same standard across the board?)

DC didn’t do actual SATS in year 6 because of covid though they done mock ones and done well.

Ate there any teachers or parents that know? Do they do IQ tests or something then try to predict a GCSE grade but they don’t want to tell us?….

Just trying to understand so I can try to keep DC on track because the grades seem ridiculously high and I don’t want DC to feel like a failure if they end up with ‘Not on target’ and I think this will happen in some subjects, as DC has never done music in their life…

The grades are all the same - 8’s

CATs test and SATS score plus assessment in autumn term of Y7.She was adjusted at the end of Y7 and so far stayed on this. She is now in Y10 and we will see what happens at the end of term when they are adjusted again.

We totally ignored all of this. As long as the progress is there in each report and the grade are in line with the expectation for her year then we are fine.

Thanks all who replied. What you all say makes sense.

It does seem a bit of a random that they ‘predict’ what a child will get in DT/Drama/Music/PE/Art etc…. On the back of scores they get that mainly assess Maths and English.

That’s why I was a bit thinking it seems like ‘Computer says…’ rather than ability in those areas.

It’s all a pile of bollocks. The government does not set target grades for your child and these companies that churn out target grades based on SATs are plucking them out of thin air because kids who sat the new style KS2 SATs have not yet sat proper GCSEs so they don’t know how they actually match up in reality.

In addition, they are only accurate for a cohort and should not be applied to individual students, particularly not in Y7.

The teachers are being vague because they don’t know and because they don’t want to say ‘it’s bullshit’.

Our year 7’s have just sat CATS tests in Maths, Science and English and the average they scored on those three papers is used as their single target grade for every single subject - even music and PE. Everything.

Its flight path isnt it?

If your child is generally academically inclined) (eg good memory, grasps concepts quickly and in depth etc) , the nature of GCSE music is that you don't actually need to be exceptionally talented as a performer to access a high grade. This is true of most subjects at GCSE. The target grade is an indication of your child's potential to access the grade. Its helpful because it holds the school to account somewhat if they end up miles below that.

Target grades aren't used to hold the school to account.

Schools are held to account by the government (or at least were, god knows what will happen for the year groups that didn't sit SATs) using a measure called Progress 8, which compares pupils against children who scored the same as them in their KS2 SATs, and the grades that they actually got at GCSE. It's calculated after GCSEs are sat. Whether those grades that their peers got at GCSE that they are compared against are anything like the target grades...probably not.

Our DS didn't do SATS and they have him all 5 and 6 in year 7. They haven't revised them and he still hitting 5 and 6 in most subjects in year 11. I'm not really bothered by them to be honest.

Yet a child who was graded a 4 in art and working at that level gets told they are doing well, a child working at a 6 but has an expected grade 7 is working below expectations. It all seems very wrong.

I completely disagree with this statement @Hoptoit1
Or are you saying that children who will never achieve grade 5 at GCSE should be told they're not working hard enough and should just make more effort?

Why are you assuming that the target is accurate? Any child who is working their socks off should not be told that they aren't working hard enough because some made-up data on them doesn't match some other made-up data.

I've worked in a few secondary schools and they all did them in slightly different ways, but they were absolutely all "computer says" and the subject teachers had no input into them at all.

It is really for the school to assess its teaching and be assessed against other schools.

Yes- those are called public exams @TheReluctantPhoenix, or KS2 assessments, GCSEs and A Levels.

My brother was a secondary maths teacher and said this is one of the things that pushed him to quit teaching. He said it is total bollocks and harmful to children in many ways.

We set targets for the end of ks3 based on CATS, baseline assessments and work done at the start of y7. We haven't had to set them yet.

@noblegiraffe

Why are you assuming that the target is accurate? Any child who is working their socks off should not be told that they aren't working hard enough because some made-up data on them doesn't match some other made-up data.

I'm assuming the target is accurate because I know my child, and I know what standard of work is required for them to achieve their target grade, and I can see that the effort grades for the subjects they don't like are lower, I know how much effort they put I tando their homework for those subjects (i.e. none!) and amazingly those are the subjects below target...

Fischer Family Trust using CAT scores. Then depending on the school, they set on the 50th percentile (or in my school’s case, much, much higher). It can be very intimidating for children and doesn’t take into account dislike of subject/external factors. It’s bonkers.

Most schools use Fisher Family trust which uses a range of measures, including cat scores. Then as pp said above, the school chooses which fft measure to use as to how high the targets are... It's all bollocks to be honest.

I'm assuming the target is accurate because I know my child, and I know what standard of work is required for them to achieve their target grade

That's impressive. Teachers can't do this, particularly with all the messing around with grade boundaries due to covid.

Likely CATS tests. I’m a Year 7 tutor who spent most of a recent parents evening reassuring concerned parents! Take them with several punches of salt, focus on the effort grade and if they make progress across the year IMO.

Several PINCHES of salt, although ‘punches’ may have been my subconscious there, I really dislike the CATS test targets!!

I had the opposite. My DS was a late developer and just passed his SATs, and his target scores in secondary were lower than I knew he could achieve. They couldn't be changed. What worried me was that the school might think he was only capable of the target scores, but I think the school mostly ignored the targets. He did very well at GCSE, an even mixture of 7s and 8s and one 9. So I would say don't worry about the targets, just make sure he is making the progress that he is capable of.

@Motherhubbardscupboard yes it is equally problematic the other way round

That's impressive. Teachers can't do this, particularly with all the messing around with grade boundaries due to covid.

So you're not giving your Y11s any form of working at/predicted grade this year @noblegiraffe ?

Telling a teacher to make up a grade doesn't mean that that grade will be accurate, Haskell

From our experience it's a load of balls. At our secondary you don't even get predicted grades. Children are either working to target, above or below. But no blinking idea what that target is... Just get told it's individual child based. Lovely . I've always been against streaming in schools but the last few years have made me change my mind. At least if your child is set or streamed you can see where they are more clearly.

Targets are utter bollocks.

Yes, by Year 11 teachers know more or less what a student is capable of at GCSE, but in Year 7?

For our year 7s, we subtract 4 (years) from the made up GCSE target to give a completely meaningless number. Then we have to tell kids whether or not they are achieving this meaningless number.

Some will spend 5 years being told they are "behind" - compared to a number that didn't mean anything in the first place.