to still be upset after he's apologised...

[pinktinselanddollymixtures]

I love my husband to bits. But every now and again he really winds me up. He is the youth deacon at our church and I support him 100% in this. But and here is the but, every few months I have to have a conversatiopn with him about how is doing so much with the youth that he totally neglecting his family.
We have 3 children and surely he should be giving the best of his time to them.

Well, anyway he's done it again and this time i'm really upset. Namely because it's christmas and he missing out on important family time because he is taking the youth group out.

Last week he missed out on a christmas trail with the girls because he took the YG to a gig. The day after the gig we were supossed to be going christmas shopping but 3 of the youth boys stayed over and didn't leave till 12. He was supposed to be somewhere else at 2 so that didn't give us a lot of time.

This saturday he has arranged (without consulting me) to take the youth group up to cheltnam for the weekend. Not only is this valuable shopping time. But it is also our carols by candelight service at he church. Which we go to every year as a family, well not this year it seems.

So he has said sorry. He has told me that he had some reflection and realised he is in the wrong. But I am upset because I dont need any reflection to know I have to put my children first. I am their mum and it comes naturally, why is it so hard for him?. He tells me he loves us and we are his main priority but his actions completly go against that. I'm fed up of going over the same ground every few months and I am more upset because it's christmas and I am having to sort out all the shopping on my own (and i dont drive).

He never ever takes me out anyway unless somebody else tells him to. Yet he is always out with the youth group.

I dont go anywhere or have anytime off from the girls. I home school them (which I love) so am with them constantly. But he is always so busy that there is never anytime for me to go out.

The worst this about it all is that I am a christian, I know I should be able to just forgive him and move on, so why am I finding it so difficult?

Sorry for the long post.

YANBU - it makes me so sad when i see people in church get so caught up in "serving the lord" that their own family ends up feeling neglected.. sorry haven't had time to read all the posts but have your tried telling him that he is not sorry at all according to his behaviour?? I think perhaps you should mention to him that you don't want to be sneaky and go to the pastoral team behind his back but that you are considering it as he is not respecting how you feel.
Without wanting to go off on a rant and preach, i wish lots of men (mostly!) in the church would realize that serving their wife and family is what the Lord probably cares about most! it might be a bit pointed but i would really suggest buying (and reading yourself too) "sacred marriage" and "sacred parenting" by Gary Thomas to try and get him to think about this a bit more, they are wonderful, wise and liberating books. Also a book called "as for me and my house" sorry can't remember who that is by! Your dh needs to know there is no shame is saying to the church "sorry my family comes first" - what a role model he would be then!
all the best to you though, you have my sympathy xxx

Smithagain- dh timetabled responsibilities include youth group on a friday and distinctive (sunday school for 11-18 year olds). Also doing the rota, making sure there is enough helpers etc. All the other trips/events are extra. And like I said I am very suppotive of that. But feel that really I dont get any support back.

Yes I totally agree with you about forgiveness being the core of our faith, and I am struggling with that at the moment. I have given it up to God and I suppose really cried out to Him over this situation.
Last time we went through this, God reminded me of Peter (i think it was) who left his family to follow Jesus. And I felt comfort in the fact that at least we still have dh. I did mention this to dh at the time. But so far i'm finding it difficult to find the peace and comfort I so need.

Smithagain- It was arranged that 1 of the boys would stay over, as dh always ends up running several of the kids back home. The evening was set to finish late and this one particular boy has recently moved about 20 miles away and dh disn't want him to miss out. The first thing I knew about the others coming over was when I heard them coming in about midnight. Of course I can understand dh wanting this boy to have some company his own age, but it might have been nice to be consulted.

The parents are all quite happy with their kids coming over, dh has good relationships with them aswell. And the church know we have an open doors policy in the house, meaning that if any of the kids are having difficulties they can come to us and chat.

Fairylights, thankyou for the reading list, will def go and check them out.

pinktinsel - it's great that you are able to have an open-door policy and the young people know they are so welcome. And that their parents are supportive, too.

Maybe when all the mad activity around Christmas is over, you and he could have a joint study session on one of the books fairylights has suggested?

Hi pinktinsel. I'm involved in church youth work too so I know how time consuming it can be! I wonder if you could ask him to plan his activities a term in advance and involve you with the planning so you know what's happening and when? You could also plan some family days at the same time. Also it sounds like you could do with a 'marriage evening' or similar once a week where you get the evening to spend alone together, either in or out but no TV etc.

I'm slightly concerned on a child-protection level about how appropriate it is for you to have them sleeping over, (as much for your protection as theirs), but I guess that's a separate issue!

To answer your original question I think repentance means "turning away" or not doing it any more and I don't think you feel like your DH is going to stop, which is probably why you're still upset. Maybe you could think about what you want him to agree to (like the things I suggested above) and then have a discussion about that?

I've just read your post, no advice I'm afraid, but just to re-emphasise that Christmas is a hideously busy time in the Church - dh and I both work in churches, and it does make December a very busy time. What works for us is that the children themselves are very involved in Sunday School plays, school carol services etc, so they feel their own 'business' and that's how we do December, then relax at 12.00 Christmas Day. But this week for example;

Tonight - dh at church
Saturday - I have a rehearsal then concert all afternoon/evening
Sunday - Church for everyone in the morning, then I have work all afternoon /evening at church
Monday - children and dh have school carol service, I have separate concert
Tuesday - quiet night in(!)
Wednesday - dh and I are at church for carol service
Thursday - concert for me
Friday - dh at church
Saturday - NOTHING
Sunday - church for everyone - morning and dh in evening
Monday - nativity service in afternoon for children, midnight mass for dh in evening
Tuesday - church for everyone in the morning.

And somewhere we have to shop for Christmas dinner, try and finish off the last few bits of Christmas shopping, take the children to Christmas parties etc etc. We're lucky in that we're both busy so we're not resentful of it, but it is hard work trying to juggle everything AND the children!

Tortoise- I understand how busy church is at this time of year. I run the toddler group and the creche at church. I also do know your bible group at my house for the mum's with young children. Then we have carol services and plays to go to etc...

One of my biggest issues at the moment is that Dh has planned this weekend away with the youth group in spite of how busy things are. This trip us just a trip, in no way shape or form does it have anything to do with christmas, so it could have been done another time. Not so close to christmas when we are busy doing so much anyway.

Eachpeachpearplum- To plan a term in advance would be fantastic. But dh has trouble planning things a week in adavnce (well, he's not quite that bad, but you get the picture). He has always left things pretty much to the last minute.

I do understand that - I've been cross when dh has done 'needless' things close to busy times - I think sometimes you get into the mindset of 'being involved' and it's hard to remember that you're involved with your family as well.

Can you help him plan activities for the youth group? And be firm with him about timetabling in time to spend with the family?

You know he can't say no - and obviously don't want him to break his commitments once he's made them - but if he's already said he'll do stuff with you and the girls and it's in the diary that he's doing it, maybe he'll be less inclined to book to do stuff with the YG?

He probably justifies it as "Well, PT hasn't said we're doing anything that weekend, so I'm sure she won't mind" - don't you think?

I think your right munker. I suppose part of my supporting role is to help him timetable his activities properly. And in the past I have been guilty of letting him do all sorts (maybe too much).
I just find it hard to understand that if he works all day why would he want to plan so much extra stuff away from his children. If I worked full time and knew that I could be sent away at any given time (dh in navy) I would like to think that I would be a lot more careful about the amount of time I spent with my family.

Still I have to accept that as much as i'd like him to prioritise our family on his own. I dont think that's going to happen, i'm going to have to help him. All I want is for him to do this on his own. To look at what he wants to do and think "no I cant do that coz I need to spend some time with the girls". Or "I'm gonna have a break this night so I can take my wife out. Is that an unreasonable expectation? are all men this bad at curtailing there commitments.

But if he needs help to break out of the pattern he's got himself into - and it sounds like he does - the best way to do it is fondly, with the thought at the forefront of both your minds that you're working towards a better, more harmonious family life.

Can you tell him how proud you are of the work he does with the YG and how keen you are to support him BUT not at the expense of your family life with the girls - and then go on to talk about ways you can work together to make sure that he leaves enough time to do both well, not one at the expense of the other?

I bet he feels faintly guilty whilst he's doing YG work if he knows that you're not happy about him being there - so it's win-win for everyone that way.

ok, i'm starting to get a little concerned with the amount of concern there is over members of the yg staying over, I was under the impression that because i'm here also that it was ok. Perhaps i'm being a tad niave, will have to talk to dh regarding this i think.

Munker I do have that talk with dh every few months. and then he does tell me about everything he wants to do and if it's ok. But then every few months, we get to this point where he stops involving me and he plans things without consulting me. Just assuming that it's ok.

I have to plan toddler group and creche every week, I have to teach and look after the daily needs of my children. I need to do the housework. Do I really need to ask keep on top of him, every week aswell. When he became youth deacon I promised to support him, but do i have to be on his back about it all the time?

it's not that i'm unwilling to help him break out of this pattern, its that i'm fed up of doing it over and over and over again. how many times do i have to have this out with him before he finally gets it?

I would imagine that he is CRB cleared?

He should certainly be for his own protection, as well as for the peace of mind of parents not to mention the young people themselves.

The youth leader at my church often has some of the group to stay, but it tends to be more of an informal thing than a church thing if you know what I mean.

I (together with the 2 helpers and my joint leader) recently took my Sunday school children on a weekend camping trip. We are all CRB cleared and are good friends with all the parents as we - naturally- attend the same church.

Yes he is crb checked as am I. Also most of the time the youth have stayed it has been on informal grounds. We did a sleepover here once as an organised church event. But other then that the youth just like hanging out with dh.

Hi pinktinsel - Here are a couple of thoughts which may help:

1. Schedule a regular hour on a set night each week (when DCs have gone to bed) where you have a glass of wine, or tea and cake, together and just get the calendars out then to agree the plans over the next few weeks. That might soon not feel like a chore where you are getting him to do stuff, but might actually start to be nice time where just the two of you get to chat about what is coming up in the following week or so, any moans you have about creche/youth group etc. - sounds like part of this is that you yourself feel neglected as much as your DCs and need that one to one time and this might just be a way to start that. When we did our marriage course, they stressed the concept of 'date night' where you commit to one night per week being focused on each other and say no to everything else, and I think that could be really important here for the two of you even if it just starts as an hour or two, and involves some boring diary management.

2. Another route might be to agree with DH that he can do say two things with youth group per week (preferably on set days - don't see any reason why the activities can't be planned on the same days each week) without clearing it with you, but that he must keep Saturdays free for family (or whatever works best for you), and if he wants to do more stuff on other nights then he must clear that with you first. That way you both know the ground rules, and also if you have weekly meetings to agree calendars etc. then he doesn't have the excuse of letting it gradually get on top of him. At the moment it sounds like you let him do his own thing for a few months, hoping he'll see the error of his ways, until it really gets too much for you and then you get really upset and then he feels mortified etc.

3. He definitely needs help from other adults with youth group stuff so that if there is a crunch (you've got double booked or a DC is ill or you think he is doing too much or you just really need a night out with him!) he can step away from youth work on a particular night to be with his family. I am a unit helper with my local Brownies and there are three of us who run the unit. We recently started a parent's rota because although we can do the meeting with 2 people it is much better and safer with 3, and it meant that if something came up (as it did with me a few weeks ago) then we still had to do Brownies rather than attend to our other commitments which could get tricky. Having the extra pair of hands just gives that bit more flexibility if one of us needs to take off at short notice, and because at least 2 of us there at any one time are CRB checked etc. there isn't the child protection worries about having another parent there, but we get that all important extra help.

Good luck! It sounds like you need a bit of love and attention at the moment, both you and your DCs, and I hope that you get it soon :-)

Sorry - just realised how long this is. I'm not very good at writing short comments!

I don't think it's unreasonable to say he needs to ask you before organising or committing to anything (and vice versa). But it sounds like he's agreeing to that and then going back on it, which is more difficult to deal with. Also I think it would have been fine to turf them out at 10 because you needed to go Christmas shopping and I'm not sure why he/you felt unable to do that.

On an emotional level he may not realise that you need him to spend time with you to show that he loves you and it's probably not that you're not a priority, just that he doesn't understand what that means to you. (Have you read "The Marriage Book"? or done the Marriage Course? It's very good..)

It sounds like he's also a bit disorganised if he can't plan more than a week in advance, and that could be quite unsettling for the young people too and maybe why they want to be around him so much if they never know when they're next seeing him. Does that make any sense?

I know everyone's CRB checked these days, but I still don't think ad-hoc informal sleepovers are ok. I know it's rare but it's not unheard of for Christian youth leaders to abuse their young people (even with no prior record) and if you set a precedent that it's ok for them to sleep over with you then it will be ok with any of your co-leaders or successors too. Not sure what age we're talking about here though - obviously there's quite a difference in vulnerability between 13 year olds and 18 year olds. Organised sleepovers are better, especially if they're in the church building and have lots of kids and leaders there.

Good luck with having a talk! It's hard to commumicate sometimes when you're upset, but I hope he can understand where you're coming from and make some changes!

Regarding overnight stays, I don't know what denomination you are (if any), but the Methodist Church's guidance on residential trips is here: www.methodist.org.uk/downloads/ch_tripsguidance_1105.pdf

It includes a short section on youth club meetings in the home of a married couple, and basically suggests that you make every possible effort to make sure that there is a third party present, who is not related to the two of you, present. On that basis, I don't think you are giving yourselves adequate protection against malicious accusations or misunderstandings.

Sorry, I know that's just giving you another thing to worry about.

Perhaps you should sit down and talk to him about just how much time he plans on allocating to the Youth Group, at the moment it seems like an open-ended commitment, with your family ending up far down his list of importance. Your husband is being irresponsible by leaving the parenting up to you whilst he goes off and enjoys himself. If he has a set amount of time (number of evenings, weekend etc he can devote to it) maybe it will help to focus his mind about his responsibilities a bit more clearly.

I have to agree with what other people have said about the sleepovers at your house. I'm quite suprised something like that happens actually. My ex was (and is) very involved with the scouts so did a lot of camping with them as well as leading a weekly meeting with the rover crew. He had a lot of fun with it, but we'd never have dreamed of having these young people stay over (they were over 18 too). To be honest it sounds like he's not setting clear boundaries about it.

Holidaysqueen- I really appreciate yopur post. You made some good points, thank you.

Eachpeach- We have not done the marriage course, tho it is something that I have suggested in the past (not recently), but it's finding a free evening to do it. I think somewhere I have a dvd 21 centuary marriage from care for the family. I will have to see if I can dig this out.

Really he is a good dad, and I dont want people to get he wrong impression about him. It's just times like this he gets a bit lost with the whole parenting thing.

Since i was on this afternoon, things have somewhat changed. Several young people pulled out of the trip this weekend. So one driver wasn't needed. Dh thinks this was a response to his prayer and has decided not to go. so he is now staying with us for the weekend. Which means we get family time and he doesn't miss the carols.

On the one hand this is great, we really could do with this. On the other hand I feel like a little kid who has sulked so much that she has got her own way.

I would never have asked him not to go after he had made a committment. But i appreciate that he has given it up for us.

I think it would be a good idea to show dh this thread. It has been hugely helpful to me and I am sure it will be to him also. Thank you so much for all your replies.

YANBU at all. He's feeding his ego at his family's expense. Everyone's supposed to go, ooh, look at MrPinkTinsel, he does such a lot for the community, he's so wonderful - but you and your DC are supposed to just shut up and put up with it. Is this church one of those who think women aren't quite human beings, and that the only one who matters in a family is the Man, by any chance?

Good evening, Mr Pink Tinsel here.

Firstly thank you all for your comments.
In response to "feeding my ego". As a Christian I am not in youth work for my own ego for for self glorification. I do what I do to glorify God, I have a passion to see young people grow in their relationship with Jesus.
In my heart God comes first, then family, then my yoputh ministry. That however is not always put into action. The truth is I love my family so much, sometimes though we are all guilty of taking someone or something for granted.
I honestly think that when I go out all the time as much as I am glorifying Him in youth work, I am dishonouring Him in neglecting my family.
DW mentioned that I am not going away this weekend. I had a choice and it was not about trying to get DW out of her sulk it was about a start of a new direction and a direction I intend on maintaining. i am not saying that I will not have busy weeks ahead but that they will not be one after the other.
Christmas is a time of year in which we can reflect and think about where we are going wrong and try and make the changes required.
The truth is I have a real desire to involve DW with the youthwork. It is just aboput sitting it down and making it happen. I liked the idea of sitting down with a glass of wine and calenders, I mean that could actually be fun.
Just a few thoughts from me.
Thanks again for your advice and support x

This is why I refuse to go to church...it seems that 'religion' is all about doing for those on the outside of the family...when in truth its what goes on between the four walls of the home that matters most to God.

If we all spent the time doing more with our families then all these church progammes would not be needed.

YANBU.

I follow Jesus not church.

Jesus said. "Go into all the world and make Desciple of the nations"
I am sorry I cannot achieve that within the four walls of my house. I cannot help young people come to know who they are in Christ within the four walls of my house. And Church programmes are essential, but they need to be carried out on the streets with the homeless the drug dealers the alcoholics and prostitutes and not within a Church building.
We need to do this not at the expense of our families which is a real gift from God. It is about finiding a balance, that is where i have wondered off the track.
I follow Jesus also not church and not religion.