To ask if you have done a PhD?

[ClaraBean]

And if you have, how old were you when you started it?
I'm 42, and really feeling the urge to go back to uni and do my PhD. I'm obsessed with the idea. Will I be an old crone? Is it the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard?

59 and will start Masters part-time in April with the intention of then progressing to Phd. So will be 62 when I start. Been saving up the experience for when work and family became less demanding. Didn’t need one for work.

Redyellowblue34, please, please start a thread on the ‘Mature Study and Retraining’ board! It would be so fascinating to follow your progress.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mature_students

@ClaraBean

And if you have, how old were you when you started it? I'm 42, and really feeling the urge to go back to uni and do my PhD. I'm obsessed with the idea. Will I be an old crone? Is it the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard?

I started mine at 23, there was someone else doing there PhD under my professor who was in their sixties. I felt old compared to the 18 year old students at the uni, young compared to the professionals who had come to it part way into their careers.

If you feel a PhD is the right thing for you then go for it, Dr Bean incoming!

I did mine at age 22-25 straight after my BSc, which at the time was the only path I knew of anyone ever doing. Funded by research council Quota award... Everyone then was funded by the research councils and/or industry, afaik no loans or self funding, so they had to be projects deemed worthy of that funding. Straight into work which pretty much only recruits at the PhD or postdoctoral level (a branch of scientific software). I finished writing up while working (DH got his done within the standard 3 years). Things may have changed but back then a '5 year PhD' wasn't a thing afaik...that length might suggest something had gone a bit wrong.

But for the OP - if you can afford the time and money and really want to do it, go for it. We only get one life, if this is what you really want to do and you can do it then you'll probably always regret not doing it.

I finished mine when I was 36 and was the youngest person in the group so I wouldn't worry about age. What's more important is having the time and headspace to make a commitment to it. Go for it!

I’m doing an MFA at the moment and I am middle to bottom when it comes to age range — many more older than I am, and I’m 39. Hoping to do a PhD after, just because I adore my subject. I work full time alongside, in a completely unrelated subject.

Computing. So of course when he graduated and tried to get a job as a programmer alongside people with just a BSc, he wasn’t very successful.

I find this quite surprising. Perhaps it is location-dependent? I mean Silicon Valley is absolutely full of PhDs in computer science etc. DH went straight into working as a developer in the City after his, and it was apparently a big part of why he got an interview for that job.

I think women have this tendency to think doing anything after the age of 28 is 'mad' and 'crazy' and then they make references to being 'an old crone'. Why?

People live long lives. They do things. It's fine. You don't need permission, or to worry what others think.

As a side job I run workshops to try and encourage more women into my field of work. And you know what? It's fucking impossible. Anyone over 30 says they're too old to try anything new, or they'll 'look silly' or 'I can't think anymore' or 'I'm not clever enough' and it's exhausting. How did their lives take such a dismal turn that they can't envision a new skill or education? How are women still so, so hard on themselves?

I know plenty of people who went back into education in their 40s and 50s and they didn't ask anyone's permission. DO the things. Don't ask. Don't be critical. Don't make 'old crone' comments.

Do the PhD and consider this the start of a new you where you don't even hesitate.

@AgileSlug

"It makes you virtually unemployable unless you’re lucky enough to get a lecturing job at university. In the past DH has been told by employers that they’d be more likely to employ him with a 5 year prison sentence on his CV than a 5 year PhD."

Nobody has ever said it so bluntly, but I have had that experience too. Whenever I'm applying for jobs outside academia, I take my PhD off my CV and was doing voluntary work and helping out with the family business whilst raising my family. It makes me sound a humbler and kind and helpful person, modest and deferential.

I think that sounds quite mad. What type of job values a CV that looks ‘humble and deferential’? Or assumes that anyone with a doctorate has any specific personality traits?

OP, I echo pps explanations of the chances of an academic job these days, if that’s a direction you plan to go in. I was 29 when I finished mine, but there were people in my cohort (Humanities) who were starting in their 60s, but I was headed for an academic career -/ though worth saying that many of my intake planned this snd didn’t manage it.

@teezletangler

Computing. So of course when he graduated and tried to get a job as a programmer alongside people with just a BSc, he wasn’t very successful.

I find this quite surprising. Perhaps it is location-dependent? I mean Silicon Valley is absolutely full of PhDs in computer science etc. DH went straight into working as a developer in the City after his, and it was apparently a big part of why he got an interview for that job.

Maybe he didn't do his PhD in an area which was of any commercial interest? I wouldn't expect a PhD to be recruited at the 'programmer' level and needing to compete against new grads. Of course, there's a certain amount of luck - I didn't know when I started mine that it would be the entry route into a pretty much new field, commercially.

@Ryannah

Wow, what type of industry does your husband work in? Computing. So of course when he graduated and tried to get a job as a programmer alongside people with just a BSc, he wasn’t very successful. The same applies to any subject where the PhD isn’t absolutely essential for the job. I’m just saying think about long term job prospects because if the PhD isn’t essential it will damage your employability.

This would not be true in many fields (I do know computing people can be funny about it, though, as my ex was in that field).

I did my PhD in my 20s, but knew people of all ages. Of my cohort, who finished in 2013/14, one has a permanent academic job, one (me) has had a string of temp academic jobs, one has editing and publishing and library-archivist jobs, and one works in non-academic research institute. We are not very representative TBH, but none of us ever found the PhD was a negative CV point - definitely the opposite.

I also know of people who went into publishing (again, a PhD is a plus point on your CV), civil service (not sure but she says they were polite/enthusiastic about it and they employed her, so ...), research support, education and outreach roles, obviously it's useful there.

When I apply for non-academic jobs (which I do, because frankly academic careers are a very very very very long shot), I usually put my PhD on my CV, as otherwise there'd be a gap, but I also specify that it was funded (ie., not a hobby project) and I don't use 'Dr' as my title, I use 'Ms'. I think that can be a good way of signalling that you are not going to be dwelling on your PhD and becoming a bore about how qualified you are.

I know a lot of people who I met after they completed PhDs and left academia, who work in perfectly normal, good, interesting jobs. You wouldn't necessarily know they had PhDs because it doesn't come up.

The problem is people (and there's always one), whose conversation starter is 'Hi, I'm Dave, and DID YOU KNOW I DID A PHD, ME, YES, YES, I AM A DOCTOR AND CONSIDERABLY MORE SMARTER THAN YOU'.

That is the person no one wants to employ.

@teezletangler

Computing. So of course when he graduated and tried to get a job as a programmer alongside people with just a BSc, he wasn’t very successful.

I find this quite surprising. Perhaps it is location-dependent? I mean Silicon Valley is absolutely full of PhDs in computer science etc. DH went straight into working as a developer in the City after his, and it was apparently a big part of why he got an interview for that job.

I don’t know how long original poster’s DH got his PhD but it could be the type of jobs he was applying for. Or his PhD title . As computing/computer science degrees are quite theoretical it wouldn’t have been of much use in a front end web dev job compared to someone who has already built their own projects for example. Meanwhile C++ developers for financial trading systems need lots of theory, and someone from a ‘self-taught boot camp’ environment alone won’t cut it.

I suspect he didn’t apply to jobs commensurate with his qualifications

Also OP go for it! PhD’s have never been a negative point and I know quite a few older people doing them

Also degrees not correlating to programming ability is a pet subject of mine as a ‘self-taught’ developer but this isn’t the thread for that 😂😂😂

Which rubbed some people up the wrong way.

While it wouldn't bother me at all (my sister and her husband are both academic doctors) I have always worked in environments where nobody puts their academic or industry qualifications after their names. In my business environment It's no more useful to know that Mary has a PhD than John has an MSc or Freda left school after A levels.

@Ryannah I can totally believe this. I had a boss bully me relentlessly because she didn't like me, because I had a fricking masters degree. She decided that I got into the job purely because of the degree (she didn't hire me), despite the fact that I had loads of experience also. She also bullied my colleague with a masters. Her "golden girl" was a girl with a couple of A levels, who she saw as "grafting and working her way up." When this girl started doing a part-time degree in a related subject, she went on to the bullying list as well.

Some people have bizarre views of further education.

I find this quite surprising. Perhaps it is location-dependent? I mean Silicon Valley is absolutely full of PhDs in computer science etc.
Maybe if we’d moved to London or California. But in Yorkshire it seems that small businesses (and they are mostly all small businesses) prefer not to hire someone who’s more qualified than them.

As computing/computer science degrees are quite theoretical it wouldn’t have been of much use in a front end web dev job
That was the problem I think. Lots of theory and research studies that employers didn’t care about, they just wanted programming skills. Maybe if we had moved to a city he’d have been applying for jobs that were more relevant to his qualifications. If you don’t intend to relocate then a PhD probably isn’t worth it.

My industry isn't averse to phds, they're attractive to certain companies as they feel they add cachet.

However, they would be very careful when assessing the candidate at entry level. There would be concerns that the individual would not be well suited to starting at the bottom and they would want reassurance that they were prepared to do this like any other grad.

@Idony Repeating what I said to another poster earlier, it would be incredibly helpful if you could start a thread on the ‘Mature Study and Retraining’ board. (Link above.)

In the thread that preceded its creation I commented on the almost uncountable number of women posting on MN whose first sentence was ‘Am I too old to …”. This thought can be so utterly terrifying and induces the most painful stasis - sometimes over decades.

I’m grateful for the new board, but wish MNHQ could make more noise about the issue, all the time, everywhere.

I am doing one at the moment. I love it but it is hard, especially trying to juggle my research with PT work and childcare.

Although I wouldn't go as far as pp about the risks of doing a PhD, it is worth thinking about what it is you hope to get out of it before you start-

• interest and enjoyment?
• a valuable qualification in your existing career?
• a new career (in academia or something else)?

All of these can be good reasons but you need to be clear and realistic. Moving into academia as a career, say, can be extremely challenging- the low pay and job insecurity which many early career researchers face are bad enough in your 20s but may be impossible if you are in your 40s with financial commitments.

My PhD will be of essentially no value in my career, although it won't be as negative as pp described- it will simply be 5 years when I wasn't doing my old job, only slightly more saleable than a 5 year career break.

None of this is to say don't do it- it's a wonderful thing to do- but you need your eyes open in terms of what you hope to gain from it. If it's just for your own interest and pleasure, that's fine.

Mid-20s, but I was one of the youngest. I’ve honestly never thought about people ages and being too old or too you d to do something?

I started mine at 21 but there were people of all ages doing PhDs. My job is completely unrelated to my PhD so I don't use my title but I am not aware of anyone being put off by me having a PhD when I have applied for jobs. At interview people are generally interested in what it involved. I would say a PhD is really hard though

@Ryannah

I find this quite surprising. Perhaps it is location-dependent? I mean Silicon Valley is absolutely full of PhDs in computer science etc. Maybe if we’d moved to London or California. But in Yorkshire it seems that small businesses (and they are mostly all small businesses) prefer not to hire someone who’s more qualified than them.

As computing/computer science degrees are quite theoretical it wouldn’t have been of much use in a front end web dev job
That was the problem I think. Lots of theory and research studies that employers didn’t care about, they just wanted programming skills. Maybe if we had moved to a city he’d have been applying for jobs that were more relevant to his qualifications. If you don’t intend to relocate then a PhD probably isn’t worth it.

Businesses like the ones you describe have no use for good programmers . IT is an annoying overhead. Like cleaning. They have old tech and all they want is someone to keep something sticky-taped together running as cheaply as possible rather than write actual good code. That is if they’re even hiring for developers and not sysadmins. If it’s the latter then It’s sort of like tech support. They don’t want to hire people who are curious, start asking questions and try to improve things. But of course they can’t tell you this so they come up with silly excuses…

However someone with a PhD could definitely get a better job - and should already know where the market for their skills are. He shouldn’t have been shocked or surprised

I started my PhD at 23, graduated at 26. It's a brilliant thing to do if you are extremely interested in your subject. Very hard work though (at least in the experimental sciences).

IME experience a good PhD (with publications) results in plenty of job opportunities, and is a requirement in many fields such as research. Personally I work with lots of people who hold PhDs in computer science. Obviously some jobs are only available in particular locations, but you should take that into consideration when choosing your subject.

I'm 40 and started mine last year. I'm probably one of the younger of my cohort peers.

I work part-time and have a toddler, so not much free time, but I treat it like my hobby. So far, so good.