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AIBU?

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11
AcrossthePond55 · 28/11/2021 17:41

I saw that article about the Rushmore statue. He certainly is susceptible to base flattery, isn't he?

Wouldn't it be fun to be able to sneak into MarALago and swap it out for one that had Biden's face on it?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 28/11/2021 18:38

Yes, wonderful. Would he notice? How long would it take?

PerkingFaintly · 29/11/2021 13:34

the long list of Trump things that are difficult to believe and at the same time, absolutely not.

Last 6 years: nutshell.Grin

OP posts:
lionheart · 29/11/2021 14:33

www.rawstory.com/republican-nancy-mace-hypocrisy-vaccine/

'Rep. Nancy Mace (R-SC) was caught trying to pretend she's both for and against vaccines. In an interview with Fox News on Sunday, Mace told Jason Chaffetz she believed in "natural immunity." But just hours later, she had another story for CNN.'

OP posts:
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 29/11/2021 16:14

But I too believe in natural immunity (which clearly exists and is an interesting matter for study) and also believe that it is important for people to get vaccinated -- the majority are likely not to have natural immunity, and it is better safe than sorry.

The two beliefs are not incompatible, though. And I don;t think they amount to a "gotcha".

And nor is opposition to mandatory universal vaccination incompatible with either; that isn't the same as mandating vaccination for health carers or members of the armed forces (both of which already happen and don't get people whinging against them: who wants yellow fever or polio for goodness' sake), it's a universal, and I mistrust universals.

Lweji · 29/11/2021 19:07

We don't need to believe in anything when science is involved. We get evidence.

She said, from the article, "In some studies that I've read, natural immunity gives you 27 times more protection against future COVID than a vaccination." I believe that she was making this up. But I don't know what kind of articles she's been reading. I know I have not seen any that say that at all. On the contrary, people who've got covid-19 are advised to get at least one shot of a vaccine to boost their immune protection.
So, on top of being a hypocrite, it looks like she's a liar (or very confused) and she's saying by this that people should rely on getting infected rather than to be vaccinated.

All immunity is natural (vaccine or infection), unless we are injected antibodies or immune cells. Natural immunity (in the sense of being exposed to the actual pathogen) works fairly well for most people and most infections. We do resolve the infection eventually, or keep it in check. It does a pretty good job with HIV until it crashes, though, so there are limits, of course.
But, even if getting exposed (and possibly ill) was more effective in terms of future infections than any vaccine, it would still mean that we'd get exposed and could be seriously ill and die.
As a control strategy it does not make sense to favour one approach AND the other. It is either/or, even if the previously infected population do contribute towards what can be called "herd immunity", or a marked reduction in the number of susceptible people.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 29/11/2021 21:30

Not my point, though. It is possible for the two things (leaving aside the number 27, which looks to me like top-of-head garbage) both to be the case. Natural immunity exists and I approve of it. Several vaccines (now) exist and I approve of that as well. The two things are not incompatible.

I know which I prefer -- but I can't help feeling that if Fauci had said the same thing as whatever-her-name-is, that both can exist at the same time, everyone would think "how wise of him" rather than "the hypocrite".

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 29/11/2021 21:31

(Well, Democrats would; Republicans would obviously say "he doesn't know what he is talking about and this proves it".)

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 29/11/2021 21:35

Oh sorrry, one other thing: you write "people who've got covid-19 are advised to get at least one shot of a vaccine to boost their immune protection. "

People who have/have caught covid clearly do not have natural immunity. If they were immune, they would not have or have had the disease they are immune to.

There are studies going on at the moment into people who simply don't seem to catch covid no matter what. It's the ones who don't catch it who interest me, because I would like to know why they don't and whether that is something that can be reproduced.

lionheart · 29/11/2021 21:52

I think the issue is the way in which her views were shaped to appeal to a particular audience.

A conversation between scientists and researchers about natural immunity and vaccinations (rather than natural immunity v. vaccinations) would certainly be worth watching. Smile

OP posts:
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 29/11/2021 21:55

Wouldn't it just! Bring it on. I was trying to say that it ought to be and rather than or, and failing miserably.

Yes, I think she was tailoring her responses to what she thought would be approved by her audience in each case.

AcrossthePond55 · 30/11/2021 00:48

I agree; natural and vaccine immunity are not mutually exclusive.

Interesting note though: I acquired immunity to Rubella as a child because I had the disease. When I fell pregnant with DS1 probably 20 years later I was still immune. My younger cousin acquired immunity to Rubella via vaccine. When she fell pregnant with her DD probably around 18 years after she was vaccinated, her immunity was pretty much gone. When I asked my doctor about that he said that for Rubella immunity via disease is forever, but via vaccine it does fade so women planning on getting pregnant should be screened and 'boostered'. Now, our 2 DC are in their 30s so it may be that the Rubella vax is now 'new and improved' so the 'waning' immunity may be a thing of the past.

With Covid, though, no one actually knows if or how long natural immunity lasts. But they know enough that we'll need boosters if we acquired immunity via vax. It's another reason to be vaxxed even if you've had the disease.

Lweji · 30/11/2021 02:48

People who have/have caught covid clearly do not have natural immunity. If they were immune, they would not have or have had the disease they are immune to.

I see. That's why I worry about "natural immunity" being banded about. It's often not clear what people mean by it.
In this sense, it's not very helpful. Not enough people manage to not get covid through natural resistance to infection. In some cases it may just be that they didn't catch enough viruses to get sick. Or they got cross immunity from somewhat related viruses. Or they had antibodies that can recognise bits of protein from the virus.

In some cases there may be a genetic basis, but we don't want a selective sweep of the population.
Resistance to disease tends to be due to multiple factors or hard to determine, requiring huge studies because the effect is small.

Lweji · 30/11/2021 02:50

Natural immunity exists and I approve of it.

What does that mean?

The issue is whether we can rely on it as a control tool. And if we can only depend on it, as some argue.
Nobody disputes that some people are resistant to infection.

But what she referred to was immunity from people who got the disease before in relation to the vaccinated.

Roussette · 30/11/2021 07:18

I would not have wanted to risk getting covid for the natural immunity it might offer me, when it really doesn't. I know someone who has had covid twice and is now quite poorly with it. First time not so bad, this time not so. Natural immunity didn't work for them...

I just think someone with a voice going out on two major stations with what appears to be conflicting stories just confuses everyone!

lionheart · 30/11/2021 13:55

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/30/donald-trump-called-top-aides-capitol-riot-biden

'The former president first told the lieutenants his vice-president, Mike Pence, was reluctant to go along with the plan to commandeer his largely ceremonial role at the joint session of Congress in a way that would allow Trump to retain the presidency for a second term.'

OP posts:
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 30/11/2021 15:19

He denies it. Oh, ah.

www.rawstory.com/trump-call-willard-war-room/

He is also begging for someone, anyone, to debate with him. It would be purely lovely if someone were prepared to get onto a podium on the far side of a solid but seethrough barrier from him, and to his every claim reply "that's a lie, and you are a liar" and nothing else, for an hour.... or however long it took for him to run away.

AcrossthePond55 · 30/11/2021 17:01

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

He denies it. Oh, ah.

www.rawstory.com/trump-call-willard-war-room/

He is also begging for someone, anyone, to debate with him. It would be purely lovely if someone were prepared to get onto a podium on the far side of a solid but seethrough barrier from him, and to his every claim reply "that's a lie, and you are a liar" and nothing else, for an hour.... or however long it took for him to run away.

Oh yes, please do debate him somebody. Now that we don't have to worry about election polls it would be hilarious! Maybe it could be moderated by 'Weird Al' Yankovic.

Who should be his 'opponent'? Maybe Trevor Noah? Jon Stewart? Colbert?

AcrossthePond55 · 30/11/2021 17:50

So, I've heard that Doofus is doing an 'exclusive' interview with Farage tomorrow night on something called 'GB News' (which I've never heard of). Is this channel the equivalent of Fox News or is it some random 3rd rate cable news channel like 'One America News'?

Maybe they'll then do a reverse interview where Doofus interviews Farage and broadcast it on OAN.

🙄🤮

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 30/11/2021 18:22

Don't know whether this helps: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB_News

I think it is fairly random.

DuncinToffee · 30/11/2021 18:27

Kyle Griffin @KyleGriffin1
Breaking: The Jan. 6 select committee says ex-Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows is now cooperating with the probe.

"He has produced records to the committee and will soon appear for an initial deposition."

"The committee will continue to assess his degree of compliance."

DuncinToffee · 30/11/2021 18:32

GB news once had no viewers because they boycotted it after a presenter took the knee.
It is definitely leaning to the right of the political spectrum..

Roussette · 30/11/2021 19:12

So, I've heard that Doofus is doing an 'exclusive' interview with Farage tomorrow night on something called 'GB News' (which I've never heard of). Is this channel the equivalent of Fox News or is it some random 3rd rate cable news channel like 'One America News'?

Oh my. Yes it is Britain's answer to Fox News and has a very rocky road so far.

DuncinToffee · 30/11/2021 21:56

Sad About 9 people shot in Michigan school shooting, 3 dead, Biden tells us in Minnesota. He says his heart goes out to the families. Young man was about 15 years old, turned himself in and claimed his right against self incrimination, @POTUS says. “That’s all we know about it.”

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