To find it SO hard to keep professional boundaries in the workplace?

[NCmondayurgh]

NCed for paranoid/obvious reasons

I am a senior executive, working with clients all over the world. Very male dominated industry. In my mid 40s, moderately attractive but no supermodel. Married for 15 years, two young kids.

Last week I had a co investor on one of my deals come into town (I am based in the US) and ask me to have dinner - all v normal. Pre covid I actually would have said no as had lots of rules about never going to dinner solo with straight men, for which I was roundly mocked in my peer group.

This time I went - and of course we had a fantastic time, ending with him trying to kiss me, me very much wanting to but somehow managing to decline and exit swiftly. Followed by a weekend of agonising and guilt on my part, followed by anger that I have to work so hard to maintain these boundaries at work - I can’t do what the rest of the team does and just say yes to anything social because the lines get SO blurred. It makes me feel at a real disadvantage with deal flow as well.

Am I some kind of weird horrible person? (Yes, probably.) Anyone else with experience of this? I used to get hit on as a junior all the time but this is different - it’s almost just like a weird quasi dating pool that I’m not interested in, but the onus seems to be on me to say no rather than everyone else to not try it on in the first place!

AAARGH

It shouldn't matter whether you are single or married if you gk tk a dinner with a straight male or gay female you set your own boundaries and enforce them and you make it very clear that it is a business dinner and you are very much married.

The fact that you very much wanted to kiss him and forced yourself not to says that you are not making those boundaries clear enough. They should not try of course but you shut it down firmly.

If you believe that every business dinner is a potential date I am afraid it says more about the state of your own relationship too.

Thing is OP, these boundaries you talk of, don't really exist. It's extremely common for colleagues to get together, especially like minded single ones. It just doesn't happen out in the open, and everyone puts on a professional face on email and in the office. Out of hours it's a free for all. You're not a horrible person, you decide who you want to kiss! but don't agonise over some false rules and limits, do what you want.

@SeasonFinale yes but my point is that I DON’T think of a business meeting as a date. But if I don’t take steps to armour myself then this is what happens. It’s exhausting. The men on the team don’t have to do this as 95% of their meetings are with other men!

@thisplaceisweird well what I want is to do my job without constantly feeling like I am navigating sexual politics. Am wondering if that’s ever possible as a woman in the workplace!

I do wonder if your assumption that it's so inherently romantic/sexual that you need these strict boundaries is actually hindering things, here - I've been for dinner with male colleagues and clients before now and never once assumed I'd need any different boundaries than my male counterparts (i.e. "Always say no to the second bottle of wine, your head will thank you tomorrow"). Don't share a bowl of spaghetti a la Lady and the Tramp and keep it business, you'll be fine.

Followed by a weekend of agonising and guilt on my part, followed by anger that I have to work so hard to maintain these boundaries at work - I can’t do what the rest of the team does and just say yes to anything social because the lines get SO blurred.

The lines got blurred here because you wanted to kiss him, surely? He wasn't acting in a vacuum - presumably the reason you said yes to this specific investor, and this dinner, even though you usually don't, is because there's some kind of attraction there. So you blurred the lines, too.

You also say you very much wanted to kiss this man - I presume you don't maintain strict boundaries because you're scared you'll want to kiss all men you go out for working dinners with, so surely the problem here is actually - I went out for dinner with someone I fancy, and now I feel guilty so I'm complaining I'm at a disadvantage socially in the workplace for being a woman...

No I didn’t particularly want to kiss him! It was just one of those things - I thought I was walking into a normal business dinner, suddenly I felt like we were on a date.

I usually decline dinners because I’ve had this before - this weird shift into something that feels more like a date than a dinner, and it makes me uncomfortable. This was my 121 dinner post covid, and I suppose I haven’t put back my rules in. It took me by surprise.

(I should add - I know my reply sounds sarky and I'm not trying to deny at all that there are men who are sleazebags in the workplace with women. And, in fact, I've seen the same with some women. But having a blanket rule and assuming that the second you're alone with an industry peer they'll throw themselves at you seems very excessive.

Interestingly, Mike Pence said he never went for dinner alone with a woman that wasn't his wife. He was - rightly, in my opinion - called sexist for his view. The article:

Never mind what it means for the (very few) women who work in the White House, who apparently can’t count on business dinners or mentorship over a meal. The underlying message of a rule like Pence’s is the same one that’s taught to teens in abstinence-only education classes: men can’t control themselves when alone with women.

It’s an insulting view of men, a limiting role for women – we’re there to either entice or domesticate – and an archaic take on gender roles more generally.

As the Black List founder Franklin Leonard noted, if Keith Ellison – who is Muslim – “refused to dine one on one with women and used his religion to justify it, the political right would lose their minds”.)

You were sexually attracted to the man.

You also appear to split work colleagues into people you could or could not have sex with.

Are you suggesting that he sexually assaulted you by attempting to kiss you out of the blue?

Or was it that you stepped out of the professional role where you treated the man in a different way that you would have treated a woman?

But you said on your first post that you did very much want to kiss him??

ending with him trying to kiss me, me very much wanting to but somehow managing to decline and exit swiftly
but
No I didn’t particularly want to kiss him!

You/we need to get to the bottom of this. Which is it? Why (if it's the former) are you thinking about kissing someone else? How is your marriage?

The thing that leaps out is that you wanted to kiss him - of course its going to feel like a date!!

How is your marriage?

No I did want to kiss him / no sexual assault (!) but just in the moment. It was like a weird shift. Had no sexual interest in him at all before, I don’t pay much attention to any individual man around me there are so many of them!

No one else ever has this? You think it’s one thing and then there is a weird shift in energy and suddenly you’re in a parallel universe. I think there must be something wrong with me…

I actually have been called out at work for “being like Mike Pence” (ugh). I agree it is a sexist rule (although I’ll do breakfasts and lunches, just not dinners) - but surely better than risking my marriage every so often?!

ending with him trying to kiss me, me very much wanting to but somehow managing to decline and exit swiftly.

You lost my support here.
Some of your post sounds like the words of a teenager.

I felt like a teenager. Am not suggesting I should be anything but ashamed of my behaviour.

Sorry but it is you
I have had many many 121 meals/coffee/drinks with male colleagues and clients over the years and I have never experienced this.
Occasionally I have had someone try to turn the evening in a more personal direction but I shut it down immediately and it never progresses.
I have a close friend who is MD of a very successful business and we used to work together. She was a nightmare for getting herself into this type of situation and I “rescued” her numerous times. She didn’t understand what she was doing wrong but she was very open and friendly whereas I’m a bit more reserved and very business like at all times which I think was the issue. Her friendly nature was often misconstrued as being flirty

Maybe you work in a particularly sexist industry, and where people have meals 1 2 1 that often leads to other things. I can assure you that the men I work with wouldn't dream of this behaviour. I suspect if your dining with clients there is a power imbalance, relationship building aspect to your work which blurs lines as the relationship is part of your role, as well as your actual work.

but surely better than risking my marriage every so often?!

I don't understand why going to dinner with anyone would risk your marriage, unless you enter some kind of fugue state where you feel compelled to snog your colleagues every time you're in a dinner setting with them!

I'm afraid I think this is you just being weird, OP . The fact that lunch and breakfast are fine (so it's not about eating with them, or socialising alone with them) suggests to me that you have placed some kind of odd mythical romantic energy on having a meal with someone in the evening, that's so powerful that you don't even trust yourself not to make it weird? Hence suddenly finding yourself kissing your colleague even though you apparently didn't want to before...

This one is just you, I think!

Yes, it does sound like this is you, to some extent. I've had work dinners like this which have become very mildly flirty, but have never had any problems holding the line (setting aside men who are aggressively lecherous, which is not what it sounds like here).

If you lack self control then revert back to your previous rule and also cut down on the booze, if alcohol is playing a part here. What's the point in risking your marriage for a random man you're not even interested in? Do you think you might be self sabotaging?

OP, come on, you are a senior professional woman in her 40s and you can't stay in control during a business dinner?! Seriously, you need to try and get to the bottom of your issues..

@Hoppinggreen maybe I am your friend I do think I am reasonably open person and it just gets weird more often than I want it to

Ok I am a strange person. Why is this happening??

Marriage is ok. Just ok. We’re in the trenches of dealing with young kids & 2 full on jobs and my husband is early 50s and turning into a grumpy old man. But we are still connected and we try to find the light moments in amongst all the drudge.

No one else ever has this? You think it’s one thing and then there is a weird shift in energy and suddenly you’re in a parallel universe. I think there must be something wrong with me…

I’ve had this before. It’s called ‘four gin and tonics’ or similar.

I suspect I work in a very different industry, but there are lots of trips away and it’s very male dominated.

I don’t have 121 dinners or drinks with any clients. I never drink alcohol with a client. I don’t distinguish between male and female/ gay and straight. Making that distinction immediately brings sex into it. I also work to ensure they know they’re the client and I’m the professional, so there’s never any suggestion of friendship.

People just accept it’s my funny way of doing things. I’m well respected and high performing.

I think of it as “micro protections” It’s shit we have to think in that way, but we do. And yes it’s not fucking fair. Ideally they’d be a ban on dinners that blur the lines between the social and the professional, but there isn’t.

Stop splitting your clients into those you might have sex with (straight men) and won’t have sex with (everyone else). And stop being friendly and having dinner with clients, whatever their sex.

Can you talk to your manager or other women in the industry about how to make things fairer?

[quote NCmondayurgh]@Hoppinggreen maybe I am your friend I do think I am reasonably open person and it just gets weird more often than I want it to

Ok I am a strange person. Why is this happening??

Marriage is ok. Just ok. We’re in the trenches of dealing with young kids & 2 full on jobs and my husband is early 50s and turning into a grumpy old man. But we are still connected and we try to find the light moments in amongst all the drudge.[/quote]
If you'll permit me some armchair psychology - your marriage is just 'ok', you have 2 small children, you probably don't feel super amazing about yourself because of those things. You actually feel like an adult at work, and not like 'mum' or 'wife', and going to dinner is like, a date, that adults do, and it's fun? So you're a bit flirtier than you should be, because it's nice to have attention from someone who isn't your grumpy husband because it doesn't sound like he does much flirting, but when it actually goes towards a fairly logical conclusion, you feel guilty and convince yourself that this just happened to you, and you weren't part of it...

Does that sound right?

I'm not judging you, btw. It makes sense. But the boundaries you need to set aren't around what time of day you go for food with colleagues, but around how you see socialising at work and how you approach these events (in my opinion). And maybe on how you see your relationship and getting the excitement and attention you deserve from that instead of subconsciously seeking it elsewhere.

WTF?? I am part of our senior leadership and I regularly eat, travel, stay in hotels with colleagues. Some are men, some women. Sometimes it is just me and one other colleague. We would eat dinner, go to the bar etc.. not in 20 years has anyone made a pass at me on work trips and I’ve never made a pass at anyone else (I’m an attractive woman who was married, then divorced and now in a relationship).

When a colleague tries to kiss you you say “get off me, for goodness sake stop being an arse!” Very loudly and then you walk out. Nothing else should be needed.

You're not a 'strange' person, but you are just going to have to work harder at maintaining boundaries. You are unwittingly green lighting these men. Although, you would hope they could engage their brains once in awhile and keep boundaries themselves.

I have never had this issue, but my friend is constantly getting herself in pickles because she is naturally very flirtatious even when she doesn't mean to be! She flirts with literally everybody, man or woman. I love her and it does make me laugh. We are both married and 'not unattractive' so there's no discrepancy there!