To find it SO hard to keep professional boundaries in the workplace?

[NCmondayurgh]

NCed for paranoid/obvious reasons

I am a senior executive, working with clients all over the world. Very male dominated industry. In my mid 40s, moderately attractive but no supermodel. Married for 15 years, two young kids.

Last week I had a co investor on one of my deals come into town (I am based in the US) and ask me to have dinner - all v normal. Pre covid I actually would have said no as had lots of rules about never going to dinner solo with straight men, for which I was roundly mocked in my peer group.

This time I went - and of course we had a fantastic time, ending with him trying to kiss me, me very much wanting to but somehow managing to decline and exit swiftly. Followed by a weekend of agonising and guilt on my part, followed by anger that I have to work so hard to maintain these boundaries at work - I can’t do what the rest of the team does and just say yes to anything social because the lines get SO blurred. It makes me feel at a real disadvantage with deal flow as well.

Am I some kind of weird horrible person? (Yes, probably.) Anyone else with experience of this? I used to get hit on as a junior all the time but this is different - it’s almost just like a weird quasi dating pool that I’m not interested in, but the onus seems to be on me to say no rather than everyone else to not try it on in the first place!

AAARGH

@kistanbul yes micro protections! That’s what I was trying to say. Thank you.

I am definitely a friendly person and my industry runs on building relationships beyond the transactional. It’s also true that it’s nice not to be a mum at work - although I’m always very careful to make sure my family is seen as central to my life (which it is!).

@emergencygapjumper

You're not a 'strange' person, but you are just going to have to work harder at maintaining boundaries. You are unwittingly green lighting these men. Although, you would hope they could engage their brains once in awhile and keep boundaries themselves.

I have never had this issue, but my friend is constantly getting herself in pickles because she is naturally very flirtatious even when she doesn't mean to be! She flirts with literally everybody, man or woman. I love her and it does make me laugh. We are both married and 'not unattractive' so there's no discrepancy there!

except you wanted to kiss him........ As @emergencygapjumper says, time to revisit how you present.....

I think you need to reevaluate your own behaviour OP. I never blame the woman for unwanted sexual behaviour, but the fact this business dinner became a quasi date is concerning. I work in a male dominated industry and so have often been out to dinners and drinks with male clients, and they have never ever made a move or even made a BD dinner a date. Im in my mid 30s, attractive and dress well, so I am someone who still gets approached in the street / in bars, but I have never ever had a client act inappropriately with me.

That you also wanted to kiss him, because it felt like a date is telling.

I think you need to look at how you behave and the signals you give on these dinners rather than blaming the man for being a sleaze. Maybe he sensed you were attracted to him and therefore he made a move?

The casting couch is outdated and no one will take you seriously in business if you are flirty. Grow up and do your job

@GraceandFrankie honestly HOW can you never have had a client try anything on? From full sleaze to boundary issues. I’ve had the works over the years. My mind is blown that you have never experienced it. I don’t know a single woman IRL who hasn’t had some issue of this kind.

I am going to write last week off as a moment of madness / post covid boundary slippage / feeling like a human being rather than locked down mum and just give my head a wobble and move on with my old rules firmly back in place.

@NCmondayurgh I find your post so unprofessional.

[quote NCmondayurgh]@GraceandFrankie honestly HOW can you never have had a client try anything on? From full sleaze to boundary issues. I’ve had the works over the years. My mind is blown that you have never experienced it. I don’t know a single woman IRL who hasn’t had some issue of this kind.

I am going to write last week off as a moment of madness / post covid boundary slippage / feeling like a human being rather than locked down mum and just give my head a wobble and move on with my old rules firmly back in place.[/quote]
I’ve never ever had it happen, ever. Because I’m professional with my clients and make sure I don’t come across flirty, even though I am generally a flirty person. I

Colleagues, yes, that’s happened several times, but clients, never. It’s obvious from their eye contact when clients want to try and develop something, but I act oblivious and stay professional.

Ah ok so colleagues yes. Co investors are a hybrid colleague/client breed, it’s a murky world.

@luckylavender well obviously. I agree it is problematic! (FYI I don’t go around in the office having these conversations - am sounding off on MN precisely because it’s anon.)

well what I want is to do my job without constantly feeling like I am navigating sexual politics. Am wondering if that’s ever possible as a woman in the workplace!

Yes, don't go out for dinner with people. Try business lunches with an agenda.

My above comment is based on the fact you're clearly too flirty or getting too drunk, or just talking too casually e.g. about your meh marriage, and not about work? You seem to insinuate this always happens to you, so it must be you.

Or you are Samantha Brick and just waaaay too gorgeous and nobody can keep their hands off you.

I think there's a big difference between a woman who has experienced sleazy, inappropriate behaviour from colleagues/bosses/clients, which yes, many of us have, and what your'e describing. The very fact that you were tempted shows that the experience was two-way and mutual, not one person inappropriately getting a bit gropey.

I have experienced the former, although am lucky enough that I appear to have "F* with me at your peril" stencilled across my forehead so its never been too bad compared to some women (and I've seen those same men who are super mild with me be MUCH more lechy with other women). But in years and years of being the only woman in a room etc, I've never had someone come onto me to the level you're describing, nor have I ever been tempted. Because when I am in 1-2-1 situations with men at work, we do so as colleagues and possibly friends, that's it.

Having said that, I think in finance type roles there can be a bit of an odd blurring. But sadly, you have to keep drawing these lines because if nothing else, if you don't, you certainly won't continue to be taken seriously.

Haha am definitely not way too gorgeous

I never talk about my marriage at work (inc when at dinner!) in anything other than glowing terms. Ever.

Triffid - yes you are right. Drawing lines, toughen up, that’s it.

If you can't have dinner with a male colleague without being tempted such that you "risk your marriage" I think maybe the problem is your marriage and not the men.

I just don't see what the problem is in refusing to do 1-2-1s with male colleagues or clients. For men like Mike Pence, yeah OK he's worried about his reputation or roving eye... but as a woman, I'm more worried about being sexually assaulted. I think that's a legitimate concern. I would never allow myself to be in any work situation to be alone with a man I hadnt already developed some level of trust with

The lines got blurred in this particular case because you wanted to kiss him. You will have been sending out those vibes, and probably subconsciously flirting, because that was what you wanted.

If you hadn't wanted to kiss him and he'd lunged, this would be a very different case.

Has this happened before? In the previous cases, did you want to kiss (like you did this time) or was it unwanted / uninvited?

I would never allow myself to be in any work situation to be alone with a man I hadn't already developed some level of trust with

This is my stance. I have male colleagues I know and trust that I would happily go for dinner / coffee with without fear of them harassing me or wanting to take it further. There are others where I would stick to more neutral group situations.

Was him trying to kiss you an absolute surprise at the point of the kiss? Or were there comments and hints leading up to it?

Because surely you should just do what most people do, which is set strong boundaries, then maintain them by shutting down these comments or signs at the very first inkling.

[quote NCmondayurgh]@GraceandFrankie honestly HOW can you never have had a client try anything on? From full sleaze to boundary issues. I’ve had the works over the years. My mind is blown that you have never experienced it. I don’t know a single woman IRL who hasn’t had some issue of this kind.

I am going to write last week off as a moment of madness / post covid boundary slippage / feeling like a human being rather than locked down mum and just give my head a wobble and move on with my old rules firmly back in place.[/quote]
It’s never happened to me either and I don’t think I am completely hideous
I am friendly but always professional
I dont need to take things off the table because they are never there in the first place. I don’t drink alcohol with clients and all my interactions are and have always been nothing but professional, no over sharing of info etc.

@TheSpottedZebra

Was him trying to kiss you an absolute surprise at the point of the kiss? Or were there comments and hints leading up to it?

Because surely you should just do what most people do, which is set strong boundaries, then maintain them by shutting down these comments or signs at the very first inkling.

I agree, I don’t think that any man ( no matter how oblivious or sleazy) will go from 0-60 like that. They try subtle boundary pushing first so maybe you aren’t seeing that and so aren’t shutting it down Of course you shouldn’t be subject to men trying to kiss you uninvited but it sounds like in this one instance at least you may have given the wrong impression I hate how that makes me sound like a horrible rape apologist or something but if this is something that regularly happens to you and rarely to the majority of us then maybe there is something you could look at changing?

I know what you mean OP. Sounds like we work in similar industries.

It sucks you have to deal with this, and I know a number of colleagues who approach social/BD meetings in the same way as you.

I’ve also experienced that sudden shift in feelings that you describe. You’ve never been attracted to this person of thought of them in that way before but all of a sudden the the type of energy shifts and it’s quite overwhelming and you suddenly don’t know how to respond. I just make a swift exit!

Don’t beat yourself up, you didn’t do anything wrong, but I don’t have an answer to the bigger problem- sucks to be it that kind of world doesn’t it ☹️.

I've definitely had sleazy arseholes come onto me before, but never in a one-on-one setting like that. Grabbing my arse at the bar of an industry event, being a little creepy sitting next to me at an awards dinner, etc. Disgustingly par for the course.

But I've never arranged a meeting and it been misconstrued in that way. As @Hoppinggreen said, I don't want to make it seem like I'm saying "It's your fault if someone is a creep" - but if they're not being creepy, but responding to signals you may (inadvertently?) be dropping, then maybe it's worth thinking about how you approach these things.

If it's known that you assume there's some marriage-threateningly dangerous about an evening meeting, then you accept one, might he have assumed the marriage-ruining was a consideration? IYSWIM

I find that as soon as a guy starts coming on to me I start speaking about my husband. Just dropping in his name during normal conversation to make it clear I’m married and respect my dh. It’s possibly a skill but getting to the point where they go to kiss you? Nope, you nip it in the bud way before that.

Mind you, I’ve never been attracted to anyone I work with either so I have definitely never wanted any colleagues to kiss me so maybe I just have a bitch face

So you got turned on at a business meeting despite being married and want to know if that happens to anyone else?

I’m afraid it sounds as though you’re behaving like I did as a teenager: pushing every interaction with a man you aren’t repulsed by to the point it slips into flirtation so you can be reassured that you could. Other adult women don’t get themselves into that situation because at the first hint that a conversation is straying in a direction that could be personal or inappropriate, they rein it back in. You change the subject, mention your husband, stop leaning forwards, whatever. You excuse yourself if that doesn’t work. But you aren’t doing that, because you’re enjoying it.