Training as a solicitor / working full time as a mum

[Motherofking]

I have just completed my Masters in Law, I have done a few vacations schemes and opens days and i am planning to apply for training contracts. I have a 1 and a half year old so no plans to look for training contracts in city law firms , Just international law firms, national and regional firms which offer a better life work balance. Can someone give me tips on how i can manage a full time job and be a full time mum . I will put my son in nursery but i want us to spend alot of time together, i dont want to spend the only hours i have at home cleaning or cooking id rather spend it with him ?

And another question, alot of training contracts give you the job two / three years in advance, For example if i get the job in 2022 my start date will be 2024 or 2025. Would it be a bad idea to get pregnant and have a baby within that gap. I really want another baby especially because once i start my career i dont want to have any more babies. I just want to keep working until i am established enough within my career without any breaks or interruptions.

@Keepingthingsinteresting like I have stated! People on MN regularly call people out over their spellings all the time on here.

There is no place for rudeness. Its not what you say its the manner you say it in.

I'm well aware of what OP is striving towards. My point still stands! So get off your high 🐎

OP, people are asking about the GDL but I see that BPP do an LLM Law and Legal Practice course which they say contains each element of the PGDL and is also eligible for a postgraduate loan. So is this basically what you did so you could effectively get a loan for the PGDL, by topping it up to a masters?

[quote Rosemaryandlemon]@wewereliars I am a dyslexic barrister. I know other barristers with dyslexic, other additional needs and disabilities. Massive push by the Bar Council for the Bar to become more diverse and inclusive.

Even with various technologies, I still will make mistakes in written work from time to time. The solicitors who instruct me do not mind - I am sure I would not be instructed by those who was really important for.

All of us have strengths and weaknesses. One of my friends is autistic. His english is perfect. His attention to detail is phenomenal. He is a brilliant commercial barrister. He scraped through Criminal Advocacy at Bar school, could just not get his head round it. He knew he was always going to go into an area which required high levels of analytic skills. I always knew I would go into an area with higher levels of advocacy and probably less paperwork.

OP on the children front, I spend a fortune on childcare. I have always had a Nanny because of the irregularity of my hours. I am fortunate to be in an area where I earn enough money to cover this (although in the early years there was no spare money).[/quote]
This is exactly what I am talking about. Such a shame so many are judgemental. Hope they're not the ones going into schools to encourage kids to enter the legal profession and instead hope it's people like you who will be able to tell them that yes you can be dyslexic or autistic etc and a lawyer

@Newmumatlast

OP, people are asking about the GDL but I see that BPP do an LLM Law and Legal Practice course which they say contains each element of the PGDL and is also eligible for a postgraduate loan. So is this basically what you did so you could effectively get a loan for the PGDL, by topping it up to a masters?

I don’t think she’d be commenting on doing the lpc if that was the case, right?

I would second CILEX. The regional firm I work for now takes paralegals and legal executives’ careers very seriously and they often do the same work as solicitors. The rub is that you may not get paid as much but there is not as much pressure to work late.

My firm is also very accepting of part time working and working from home both of which are compatible with CILEX.

Bluntness she would as the LPC would be the next stage after either law degree or non law degree and GDL. The GDL essentially fast tracks the qualifying components of a law degree so you have the academic quals to study the vocational LPC route (or BPC if going for the bar). Here, OP has done the LLM BPP offer which is basically the GDL with a top up so she qualifies for a postgrad loan which they only do if a masters which GDL wouldnt be as is only postgrad diploma. It's the same for the vocational qualifications. There isnt funding unless masters and they're only postgrad diplomas so many students now do top up LLMs to access loans

@Newmumatlast

Bluntness she would as the LPC would be the next stage after either law degree or non law degree and GDL. The GDL essentially fast tracks the qualifying components of a law degree so you have the academic quals to study the vocational LPC route (or BPC if going for the bar). Here, OP has done the LLM BPP offer which is basically the GDL with a top up so she qualifies for a postgrad loan which they only do if a masters which GDL wouldnt be as is only postgrad diploma. It's the same for the vocational qualifications. There isnt funding unless masters and they're only postgrad diplomas so many students now do top up LLMs to access loans

I don’t really understand this. The llm is not the gdl, and the llm I don’t think enables you to study the lpc. You still need to do a gdl. Your post is confusing me,

She’s said she’s done the llm as she couldn’t get funding to do the gdl. But her qualifications do not enable her to study the llm. So I am unsure how she’s gained entry,

The reason I am confused is because you asked if she’d done the combined llm and lpc (legal practice course) and when I said she’d not be then asking to do the lpc (as she’d have done it) and you’re saying she would ask that. If she’s passed her lpc she doesn’t need to do it again,

Rosdemaryandlemon It was n't me who picked up the OPs spelling so not sure why your post is directed at me.

And if I received a written advice from Counsel with spelling mistakes I would mind, a lot.

Bluntness I also didnt realise you could do combined GDL and LLM at BPP but you can (not just combined LPC and BPP). So it would appear that OP did a history degree and then went to BPP to do the LLM which combines the GDL (they call it the PGDL) and LLM. Look it up on their website. I did which is why I am now assuming this is what OP did as it makes sense given she said she couldnt afford to do the GDL and needed funding, and the LLM she could get a loan for so did that. Lots of students are opting for top ups now to access loans.

This would mean she has done the GDL but with an LLM top up so next step would be LPC if she is going that route. I know they're changing routes to qualification so LPC isnt the only option, you can do apprenticeship etc.

@Bluntness100 and others confused about the OP’s qualifications - BPP offer the possibility of adding an additional module to your GDL which means that you receive a ‘LLM Law and Legal Practice.’

This is a popular option because it means that you qualify for a post-grad gov loan, which you wouldn’t if you were simply doing the GDL.

So when the OP says that she has a LLM, I assume this is what she’s done - she’s studied the GDL (9 compulsory modules) and then added one further module (BPP offer a ‘professional project’, ‘BTC Part 1’ or ‘SQE prep’) so that it is classified as a LLM.

It’s not at all like studying a Masters at UCL/King’s/etc., where you spend a year studying law at a higher, masters level. OP’s legal studies to date are the same as any other GDL graduate, save that she has added on one further module.

It was a popular option when I studied my GDL, not because it has any value (I have to say I don’t think it does) but because it enables you to take out the loan.

@wewereliars

Rosdemaryandlemon It was n't me who picked up the OPs spelling so not sure why your post is directed at me.

And if I received a written advice from Counsel with spelling mistakes I would mind, a lot.

Some of the top QCs in the country have typos in their advices and people clearly don't mind enough to stop instructing them. But to each their own. For many, it is the advice that has the value not the complete and utter absence of any typos. If it is typos that is the main concern, save money and instruct a pupil with a lot of time on their hands. It may not be as accurate though in other ways.

I think OP must be talking about BPP's LLM in Law and Legal Practice, which is different to the specialist LLMs in applied subjects that they also offer. The details are on the page about their GDL (now called PGDL):

www.bpp.com/courses/law/postgraduate/pgdl-law-conversion-course

"When you add one of the following modules to your PGDL, you’ll qualify with anLLM Law and Legal Practice. It’s also eligible for postgraduate funding up to £11,570.

Professional project
BTC Part 1++
SQE Preparation"

OP, rather than or as well as looking for advice on Mumsnet, have you talked to BPP's careers department about your questions around routes to qualification and work/life balance? They'll have the most up to date advice. They offer a mentoring scheme too which might help. The careers department at Royal Holloway might also still be available to you to use.

@Newmumatlast

Bluntness I also didnt realise you could do combined GDL and LLM at BPP but you can (not just combined LPC and BPP). So it would appear that OP did a history degree and then went to BPP to do the LLM which combines the GDL (they call it the PGDL) and LLM. Look it up on their website. I did which is why I am now assuming this is what OP did as it makes sense given she said she couldnt afford to do the GDL and needed funding, and the LLM she could get a loan for so did that. Lots of students are opting for top ups now to access loans.

This would mean she has done the GDL but with an LLM top up so next step would be LPC if she is going that route. I know they're changing routes to qualification so LPC isnt the only option, you can do apprenticeship etc.

That should say not just combined LPC and LLM ;)

As I say, the top ups to LLM are a way to access loans. I agree with PP that they don't really have a great deal of value otherwise. They aren't the same as a standard LLM.

Do they newmumatlast, well that is not what solicitors, and their clients pay thousands of £££ an hour for, QC or not. I instruct leading and junior Counsel day in day out and can't recall rafts of spelling mistakes.

@89redballoons

I think OP must be talking about BPP's LLM in Law and Legal Practice, which is different to the specialist LLMs in applied subjects that they also offer. The details are on the page about their GDL (now called PGDL):

www.bpp.com/courses/law/postgraduate/pgdl-law-conversion-course

"When you add one of the following modules to your PGDL, you’ll qualify with anLLM Law and Legal Practice. It’s also eligible for postgraduate funding up to £11,570.

Professional project
BTC Part 1++
SQE Preparation"

OP, rather than or as well as looking for advice on Mumsnet, have you talked to BPP's careers department about your questions around routes to qualification and work/life balance? They'll have the most up to date advice. They offer a mentoring scheme too which might help. The careers department at Royal Holloway might also still be available to you to use.

This is good advice. Also worth getting yourself on LinkedIn OP as there are plenty of lawyers on there willing to spare a moment to help a prospective lawyer. Also networking event opportunities advertised too.

@wewereliars

Do they newmumatlast, well that is not what solicitors, and their clients pay thousands of £££ an hour for, QC or not. I instruct leading and junior Counsel day in day out and can't recall rafts of spelling mistakes.

We have different experiences then. And I didn't mention rafts of mistakes. I just said they have typos in their advices. So your proof reading has added meaning to my post that is not there.

An international firm is not the place to find work-life balance! I spent many days as a trainee in corporate working till well past midnight!

You absolutely can have a career in a large commercial law firm and have young children but it is not easy. I have full time childcare and a cleaner to make it doable. I make a point of logging off at 5 but then have to log back in after bed time. I am senior so am able to do that but trainees have much less control over their diary. It depends very much on the firm and also the area you are in/partners you work for (banking and corporate tend to be v.long hours, comm prop and litigation less so, for example)

I would also take a look at childcare costs - childcare for two on a trainee salary would be very tough! I don’t mean to put you off - you absolutely can do it but while international/national firms with regional offices do have better work life balance than city firms, I’d describe it more as “less bad” than actually good.

The only advice I can give is that once you have a traineeship (but not at the interview!), you have to be upfront with your team (I.e. I have to leave at this time for childcare reasons) but also be willing to be flexible and that will mean being able to log back on later in the evenings or whatever.

I think that in-house roles or smaller firms would be more compatible with what you describe as work life balance but if you want to train at a larger firm it is doable but will require some sacrifice.

It’s been a while since I was at BPP, but when I was there, the GDL plus extra modules got you the LLB, and then then the LPC with extra modules got you the LLM. I guess it must have changed that the GDL now also gets you the LLM.

Would people stop commenting on grammar and spelling it’s a forum ffs

@TractorAndHeadphones

Would people stop commenting on grammar and spelling it’s a forum ffs

The irony! You do realise you're just opening up a new opportunity for everyone to explain why they're commenting on grammar and spelling

I think the red herring here is you talking about 9-5. Law isn’t a 9-5 profession. I have friends in corporate to high street and none of them work a regular reliable 9-5.

I’m in GLD and whilst it’s definitely more family friendly than corporate, it’s not 9-5. I tend to do 9-7 or 8-6 on a normal day. I’ve worked much later, and I’ve done weekend work. The parents do get away with murder, mind, so maybe my experiences as a childless lawyer aren’t relevant!

I'm reading this thread with interest as I'm a solicitor and had my first child early in my career (admittedly at 1 year PQE rather than before TC).

I've had a look at BPP's site and it seems there is an option to do the PGDL with a top up module which escalates it to an LLM. I'm guessing that is what you did hence your remarks about not needing a GDL.

If you do a TC you will need to fit in the LPC before you start (funding it yourself if necessary). Bigger firms in particular often recruit two years in advance but traditionally this is in year 2 of a degree so the two year "break" is for the final year of uni and then one year FT LPC; it's not really a "break" at all. At my firm candidates who can start sooner are often not given the full two years. Even if you secure a TC with full two year wait, it's still not a spare 2 years to fill (with a pregnancy and baby for example!) as you need to spend either a year FT LPC or two years PT LPC.

If you do the SQE or CILEX route you don't need the LPC, but if you start one of those routes now, there won't be a starting "break" at all either.

My recommendation would be to start paralegalling now + looking for a SQE or CILEX placement. Paralegal work will bring you (a) income, albeit modest (b) experience in the legal industry and (c) useful stuff for your applications which may possibly be at the same firm you are paralegalling for. Once you are formally employed and are building up maternity leave rights you can consider how/ when a second child might fit in with your qualification path. Otherwise you'll just keep drifting.

I'm advising, I think, steering away from the TC path for various reasons . As PPs have said TCs are now SO hard to get, even harder if you want/ need a firm who funds your LPC. I'm on the recruitment panel for my firm and honestly the calibre of candidates is so high, we turn away so many people who are eminently capable because there is one place for every 20+ applicants. When I applied (1999) it was more like twice as many applicants as TCs!

Some people keep applying for years to get a TC (and some never succeed). That's a long time to be in limbo while you wonder when it's "safe" to have another baby without scuppering your chances career wise.

I will also add that your chances of getting a TC (or indeed SQE or CILEX placement) will be vastly improved by work experience, hence my advice to get paralegal work ASAP. It will help your CV stand out among other identikit ones with a 2.1 and LLM.

Practically speaking it is HARD to work in law (particularly litigation) with small children. It's possible but it's tough especially as a junior as you have to work to the timescales, appointments and tasks set by the senior lawyers. When I had my first child I went back FT after 4 months. I felt I was likely to get quietly managed out otherwise as I didn't yet have the experience or client following to give me any unique "value" to my employer and there was a very keen (male) NQ who'd taken over my cases during my ML and was clearly pissed off when I returned so quickly. I spent little time with my son during the week. I had to "make it count" during weekends and annual leave. I don't think it harmed him though as he's now nearly 17 and planning a law degree/ career in law himself!

Then there was a lovely interim period where I was more senior but had control over my own diary etc. During these years I had a second child. I was still FT but the work/ life balance was much more manageable.

Then I became a partner and the extra responsibility has piled on the hours and pressure again, not least because I'm directly answerable to clients (as well as line managing two teams, business development etc. ) Thanks to covid though I'm now WFH 50% of the time so at least I see more of my kids even though I'm often in front of a laptop! This is a city firm but not top commercial one, mainly insurance clients and supposedly with a good work/life balance. To be fair if I hadn't gone for partnership it probably would be.

One last thing. You seem reliant on your partner financially. You should really protect yourself with marriage especially if you bear the burden of primary parenting and household stuff.