To think we’ve already f****d it up when it comes to the environment.

[MynameisWa]

Am I being unreasonable in thinking we’ve already passed the point of no return when it comes to the environment and that it’s just no one in power or in the know wants to be the one to admit it?

I see some people blaming capitalism. Capitalism simply means an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned (by the people). Capitalism has zero impact on environment or climate change.

Economic systems DO have an impact on environment and climate change, but every human society has an economic system. It does not matter who owns the means of production in that economic system. Whether communist, socialist, capitalist,....doesn’t matter one bit.

Here’s an example of the dilemma as I see it following a ‘good’ news story I’ve just witnessed on TV about UK importing solar energy from Morocco via a tunnel….

It will provide green energy to 7m homes. Seeing the UK’s target is to build 300,000 homes per year this solar surplus will soon be eaten up leaving us back at square one but with sheets and sheets of metal constructed on miles of Moroccan land and after digging huge infrastructure to get it working which of course emits huge amounts of carbon into the atmosphere.

Plus, the money generated for Morocco will increase Moroccans spending power and boost their economy thus adding cars, buildings and consumerism to the mix as they profit from their new green economy.

It’s like we make one step forward and then two back because the world won’t just stop turning whilst we sort ourselves out. In fact it’s getting exponentially worse all the time.

The solutions actually contribute to the problem.

Another example is the tree planting phenomenon. Young trees omit carbon until they are about fifteen years old when they nature and start sucking it up so the target of planting millions of saplings is complete folly. We can’t cut town ancient forests and put a new one up over there to suit our needs as that is totally counter productive.

I guess what I’m thinking is that it has to get a lot worse before it can get better but we’ve already maxed out so sadly things are very bleak.

We’re never given the full picture. Just the pretty one to help keep the mood buoyant so that we remain ‘good’ citizens that continue to pay taxes. It’s what every government wants and needs.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

I don't think most people are willing to make the lifestyle changes needed for this.

I mean, look on Mumsnet on any given day. Threads about how it's 'minging' not to wash towels after every single use or not shower twice a day, threads about fucking beauty advent calendars which are full of tat half of which the recipient won't even use because they never wanted it in the first place, threads about how disgusting tap water is, about how they want their next brand new car which is replacing their current 3 year old car to be electric 'because of the environment', endless threads about buying stuff a lot of which is shipped halfway across the world, about holidays abroad.

I just don't know if people are willing to give it all up?

This. We’re too much of a throw away consumer society. I can’t see people going back to more of a 1950s way of living when it comes to “stuff”. 🤷‍♀️

I agree. I remember a thread from a few months ago when some said they'd love to save the planet but needed earbuds as having wet ears after a shower was unbearable.

On a more serious note I think the sad reality is that the western world - the main contributors to the over consumption and pollution of the earth - will be the last to really suffer from the insatiable desire for better, bigger, newer, more.

The already destitute and starving nations which have contributed fuck all to climate change will be the ones who disappear - the "lucky" ones who flee for survival will be treated the same as the Syrians, the Afghans and every other refugees from dying continents will be rebuffed, rejected and ultimately allowed to die to protect the ones who have a chance of survival. That's nature in action.

I think its too late now. And the world population has been allowed to explode to insane numbers and is carrying on growing at a terrifying rate. Until that's tackled it's all a great big waste of time IMHO.

OP
The U.K. will not get anywhere near it’s target for housebuilding. And by the time there are 7 million more homes, there will be more green energy to go around. In addition, Morroco and other nations skip dirty technology steps Europe went through...for example telephone poles and wires. Developing nations skipped all that and went straight to satellite based wireless smart phones. Morocco will do the same, they won’t be buying diesel clunker cars but new low emissions or electric or hydrogen cars. Wealth brings clean, green improvements to nations. It’s not a bad thing. After all the first sewage plant ever built in China was built a decade after I was born....and look at China now?

On the trees, young trees do not “emit carbon” they actually absorb more than mature trees do. You must be confused. Mature trees store more carbon than young trees. But ALL trees absorb carbon. So planting trees does help. And in fact the increase in CO2 has resulted in the planet greening by itself because plants are growing and propagating faster than they were before.

@Viviennemary

I think its too late now. And the world population has been allowed to explode to insane numbers and is carrying on growing at a terrifying rate. Until that's tackled it's all a great big waste of time IMHO.

No it’s not, the rate of growth of human population is the lowest it has been since the 1950s and is continuing to slow down. There is even a 27% chance that the world population will reach zero growth or decline by 2100. population.un.org/wpp/Publications/Files/WPP2019_Highlights.pdf

For those that want a smidgeon of optimism:

futurecrunch.com/

They report on all the stories that don't hit the mainstream. There is some amazing work going on behind the scenes on vaccines, poverty alleviation, climate change and social justice. The science and tech section is mind-boggling. I am a paid subscriber and it's worth every penny.

Regarding COP 26, it's not a gigantic waste of time. The plan (since the Paris Agreement) was to force a ratchet effect on all the countries present, to keep the world between 1.5 - 2 degrees of warming. And that is exactly what is happening. India's announcement today of net-zero by 2070 has made the 2-degree goal achievable. Do you know why India announced that? Because the price of solar power has come down so dramatically that they can radically increase their installation forecasts. That's the power of research, investment and demand for solar, all over the globe. It's now cheaper to put up solar panels than to invest in coal.

This, plus the deforestation commitment and the finance agreement all show that a massive shift is taking place.

New Scientist: ||www.newscientist.com/article/2295762-cop26-why-indias-2070-net-zero-pledge-is-better-news-than-it-sounds/||

Now, the real work will take place after the conference finishes, making sure we hold politicians to account and turn those fancy words into concrete action.

I am not sanguine. Divesting from coal and oil, transforming our economies and helping the poorest amongst us - it's a massive task. There are already climate refugees on the move right now who have lost everything - people relocating from Pacific islands where the sea levels have risen or abandoning villages in India for lack of water. It's only going to get worse.

However, not everything is lost. The world came together and acted on the ozone layer. It's a major success story. I think we will do the same for climate change.

Would it have been better if we started 20 years ago? Could we have done more, saved more and been faster at doing so?

Yes.

But I will not let perfection be the enemy of progress.

www.nrdc.org/experts/david-doniger/we-saved-ozone-layer-we-can-save-climate

@Sarahlou63
Earbuds are made from paper and cotton...all plant based and biodegradable. I should know I was part of making manufacturers stop using plastic for them. You can now use ear buds AND save the planet.

@TheABC
Great post, just nit picking a bit on Would it have been better if we started 20 years ago?

Green movement has been around since the 1950s...so that started 70yrs ago. Some say even further back as the thinking/concepts the Green movement adopted were from the mid 19th century, or 170yrs ago.

And what about those pregnancy testers thst Mumsnetters seem to get through at an alarming rate. Are they biodegradable. I expect not. And all those coffee pods. I carefully recycle all I can. I only had two children. I don't travel by private jet. I've done my bit as far as I'm concerned. The whole thing makes me mad.

@Suspiciousmind20

It’s actually not that hard. Lots of reduction in carbon requires doing nothing:

Don’t book a holiday that requires a flight.
Don’t buy as much meat and dairy.
Don’t buy so much stuff.

Obviously it will need more than just that but if all households in the richer nations did that it would make a big difference. It’s all about degrees.

I’m aiming for the 5tonne carbon lifestyle. Some things have been harder than others. The times I yearn to hop on a plane and lie by a pool somewhere- but it’s not a ‘need’ and it’s not my right. It’s unnecessary and my responsibility to future generations and those at risk right now is way greater than my desire for a lie down in the sun. It’s a loss for sure but I want to look my DC in the eye and say ‘I did what I could’.

I'm down to six tonnes so far. 1.8 tonnes is energy use (mostly gas), 1.25 tonnes is food & drink (though it calculates it based on your expenditure, even though you can spend more without consuming more if you go for the expensive/ethical choices, not sure how accurate it is as a result). The thing which surprised me the most was that more than a tonne was attributed to finance. Apparently the impact made by one's mortgage is huge. According to How bad are bananas? that's how big the impact of the office space and everything else consumed by the bank is.

the western world - the main contributors to the over consumption and pollution of the earth

Er, China? India? It’s all of us. No one part of the world is to blame.

While supposedly intelligent humans use electricity to wash things that have been on their own, or their family’s body for one day. While we continue to use numerous chemicals to disinfect and kill everything. While we continue to chop down tres to provide more parking for fossil fuel vehicles. While we give no shits to our transport system. While we all ferry children everywhere, constantly. While we all buy stuff we don’t NEED but want, any while all travel to an international conference that could have been done remotely.

Bye bye humans, cue next extinction event

I also thought about the MN thread on advent calendars. Not to mention a mulberry handbag for every day of the week. Its consummerism gone mad. I saw sense and decided that no I do not need an advent calendar full of stuff I don't need.

@Starpleck

I suppose dinosaurs were arguably the dominant animal before the ice age/asteroid weren't they? Not in terms if intelligence necessarily but I wouldn't imagine humans walked around freely without fear back then and we weren't in a position to control them as we do now with animals. It will be interesting to know what the next dominant species will be when we are gone, I'm guessing not an animal in the ocean just because of logistics, so a land dwelling creature; cats perhaps?

Humans didn't live at the same time as dinosaurs. There was a gap of millions of years.

There’s a lot you can do that’s pretty painless. All of this is a morning’s work at worst: Change your bank account to triodos, change your gas and elec supplier to a green one (ecotricity’s prices held up pretty well). Write to your MP and ask them to ask a minister a question - asking Sunak why he cut tax on planes is a good one to go for. Ministers have to sign letters to MPs and what they sign they read and it really makes a difference.

Longer term get an electric car - no issues with fuel supplies and petrol/diesel cars are going to crater in value. Get insulation - saves money on bills and if your house is insulated you’ll have more options re: heating.

The tough one is flights.

Also - everything theABC said.

I don't think its too late, but I don't think we will solve it before it is too late. It would mean big lifestyle changes for everyone and politicians are too invested in keeping people happy. No politician would back legislation that would be unpopular, which most measures which could actually have an impact would be. So I don't think it will happen.

@PlanDeRaccordement I stand corrected about the saplings, but using trees to our advantage is still more complicated than planting them wherever it suits us so it’s still not a complete solution.

As for the house building target whether we reach it or not is beyond the point. The point is that humans need these homes and demand outstrips the pace at which we can deliver in a sustainable way.

I note your view on Moroccan progress but I don’t think your example of China is a good one. It’s not just carbon that’s the issue, it’s the step change from having little to having a lot of anything that’s the issue, including land which leads to soil quality problems and a host of other things.. Having more stuff will never be a solution for the environment. We should be living more like Moroccans do today if we want to save the planet, not the other way around.

The tough one is flights.

Meh it’s being worked on. Flying long haul is already lowest carbon output of any means of transportation (other than walking, riding a goat or using a sailing ship).

Several aircraft developers are working on hydrogen powered planes which will be carbon zero. They’re currently working on the water vapour problem.

@PlanDeRaccordement

the western world - the main contributors to the over consumption and pollution of the earth

Er, China? India? It’s all of us. No one part of the world is to blame.

And what are they busy producing to emit all those pollutants? All the crap we demand.

Head over to the Christmas boards and it's enough to make you weep "can anyone recommend cheap stocking stuffers for my 14 year old?" "How can I bulk their pile up to look bigger". "I want a new colour theme for my decorations this year- where should I buy 500 new baubles and a load of tinsel".

And all those "stocking stuffers", cheap gifts, beauty advent calendar and baubles are being churned out in polluting factories before chugging across the planet on massive polluting container ships.

It's easy to blame other countries, but why are they doing what they do?? To fulfill our greed.

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you for starting it.

We should be living more like Moroccans do today if we want to save the planet, not the other way around.

Sorry but have you been to Morroco? I do not think that is how we should be living? You and many environmentalists have rose tinted glasses on about oh, we should all live like serfs in the dark ages. Their lifestyle was very very bad for the environment, worse than how we live now. There were just far fewer humans then so the planet could handle their waste products.

Going backwards would be worse for the planet not better. You completely missed my point that developing countries can skip the dirty steps to a higher standard of living and jump straight to a high tech green higher standard of living. It’s not about “more stuff” but the “right stuff”.

I think its reversible still but I don't think we will do it.

Reversible in the way that yes it will get warmer, sea levels will rise, but the planet could cope with continuing and plants/fauna will survive and recover if we give it half a chance. Recoverable is probably a better descriptor as it will be a completely different world.

But the reason I dont think we will be able to do it is we are so knee jerk and throw all our eggs out of one basket and into the other.

The one big thing no one is talking about is soil degradation. We have 60 years left on current arable farmland in the UK; 50 on average around the globe. After that they will start chopping the remaining woodlands/ rainforests down as that will be only living soil left. Then we are fucked.