DMIL flexing.

[Treesandsheepeverywhere]

Hi all, please tell me if IABU as I realise I could be.
DH has a brother (single) who lives out of town and they're not particularly close but get on ok. We live in the same town as DMIL(widowed 25 yrs) and visited her two weeks ago.
So, DBIL is coming into town mid week for 2 days, going back Friday morning. He's on his leave, DMIL is retired whilst we are both at work.

DMIL has asked if we can come over to hers one evening and used the words "do you not want to see your brother" on the phone to DH last night and sighed when he couldn't accept the invitationon on the spot without checking with me/our plans.
Issue is, DBIL hasn't been in contact with DH about coming over. He is welcome to ours but she always wants to be there when the brothers meet. Both in their late forties yet she treats them like kids. We've only ever had DBIL here by himself once and been to his once in 4 years and she wasn't pleased.
Since our last meet without her, when we went to visit DBIL she has eased communication with just me. Not too fussed as it was excessive to begin with.
Thing is, we visit her without him, she visits us without him and yet has an issue with us and him visiting each other without her.

What we're thinking is that we are a separate household and can't always run over to hers when DBIL decides to visit her, especially when he hasn't mentioned to DH and it's arranged more to suit themselves and we're expected to slot in. He could be with DMIL all day amd meet DH for drinks but she wouldn't like that.
Another option we thought of, is have them both come to us instead of us trekking to hers after work.

She's complained to DBIL that she sees DH less than when he wasn't married. She saw him more than before we got married in the first two years we were together as I initiated meets but had to cut down when we realised she was taking it as a given that we would spend most of our time with her and started inviting herself over and letting herself in with our spare key.
We all go to hers for Easter, her birthday, mother's day and Christmas is at DBIL's, so it's not like we never see each other.
UABU - Visit her.
UANBU - Don't visit, let him arrange a separate visit if he wants to see DH/us.

What does he get out of his relationship with her though?

I mean he's been conditioned obviously.

But a grown man walking into another room to be given a dressing down by his Mum whilst leaving his gfriend in another room.

Utter madness.

What is flexing here? Flexing muscles, metaphorically?

I would let DH manage his relationship with his mum.

You need to be seeing her a lot less!
Personally I'd put a stop to all the visits and just do the bare minimum - no holidays or staying 5 days over Christmas. Fuck that shit!
And I'd actively encourage DH to contact his brother and see him alone. Don't tell mil and if she does find out let her. What can she actually do without exposing herself as a total loon.

I think posters who are saying she just wants to see her kids together are comparing this situation with their own normal families and not quite appreciating that this is a very different family set up.
It's not normal at all to never see your own siblings without a parent being present because your mum will have a total strop if you do!
I think you need to tell her a lot less about what you do as a couple tbh. Keep her at arm's length. Your DH hasn't developed the tools to do this without your help since she is all he's known, but you can see it with a lot more clarity.

Thank you all. We'll try to see her less and encourage DH to see DBIL separately. It will take time as when we met without her, DBIL especially was kinda tense through out and wouldn't stop talking about what her reaction would be when she found out. It's all they've both known and hard to watch.
I think well go this time but I've said DH needs to mention that we can't always be available at short notice.
When we spent 5 days over Christmas with her, at parting she said "see you at the weekend" even though neither of us had made plans with her. We managed to duck out of that one but that's what she's like.
Definitely not normal behaviour, so can't deal with it in a normal way.
Thanks again.

@VampireVicki

This sounds like triangulation to me.

I would try to increase contact between DH and his brother without MIL there.

My DC are adults and I love it when they meet up without me - I want them to develop an adult relationship that is independent of me and my influence.

You sound lovely and I hope to be the same as a mum of adults/mil.

Sadly my own DM isn't, I'm currently suffering the sulks as my adult sibling and I met this week with our children for a day out and didn't invite her she expects to be treated like the Queen of Sheba when we do get together, drives my dh and siblings partners mad!

Really don't see why she has to see her sons together every single time. I presume they're together at some of Christmas, Easter, Mothers Day, birthdays?
Ultimately it's for your DH to decide if he wants to go or not but if I were you I'd be saying no I don't want to go to MIL's - you go if you want to. I'd be happy for BIL to come to ours if he's not often in town.

This is classic behaviour though - the idea is that when family travel to see other family, all family members must suddenly make themselves available. the fact that there was no discussion re dates or plans is irrelevant.

I recognise it well as it happens in both mine and DH's family, albeit in slightly different formats, and it drives me CRAZY.

@sweeneytoddsrazor

One thing I have learned as I have got older that even when siblings get on ok often they drift apart because they are just busy doing their own thing, and very often the only times they do meet up is when a parent is involved. I do occasionally think one day when I am gone how much will my DC stay in touch. I don't see it as controlling but more of an attempt to keep them in regular contact

That. Parents of adult children want them to get on...to have a relationship. It's hard to see the grown-up versions of the children who used to play together, do everything together and be really close, just drift out of each others' lives.

I know you can't make it happen, but it is a worry for those of us with adult kids. It didn't occur to me as something that would come up at some point in my life.

I'm lucky that my 'kids' get on, but they're so different I find myself worrying. We're a tiny family, and when I'm gone they'll only really have each other. I kind of want to know that they'll remain a family. If they saw each other as little as your DH and BIL do, it would upset me. I'd try not to interfere, but if one was making a rare visit, yes, I'd want the other to visit too.

I know it's hard to explain to those of you whose kids are young. But it's a thing, and in a few decades you will all probably feel the same.

My DC are adults and I love it when they meet up without me - I want them to develop an adult relationship that is independent of me and my influence.

Exactly! I love it too!
If one of them mentions to me in passing that they've met up or done something together, it fills me with warmth and a kind of security for the future. And they have no idea that I'm feeling that, because why would they?!

You or your DH Just text your BIL. 'Heard you're in town. Would be lovely to see you. Come over for a catch up on your way home.'

It sounds like the 2 brothers have never had a chance at a decent relationship with each other.

@Rainbowsew, sorry to hear .
I'd never experienced such and it's sad they're mote mother's out there behaving this way.

@oviraptor21, yes as per my previous posts. He's come over once and he spent the whole time feeling guilty. It's just not a healthy relationship.

@Triffid1, my DM and DB close to each other in a different town to us. We arrange visits separately and together depending on what suits bit no one even gets upset about others meeting without them.

Honestly, she sounds like an energy vampire, and I would make sure not to be available like that. I would get DH to call BIL at home tonight and try and speak with him about his mother’s weird, controlling and negative behaviour like rational adults. Maybe BIL hates it too. Suggest that when BIL is coming to town, he calls or texts ahead of time and arranges directly with you both as you both have lives to get to as well. * She sounds like she has some kind of paranoid/controlling personality disorder anyway (I bet that when your DH and BIL went out together without her, she was paranoid that they were discussing her the whole time.)

Sorry not meaning to hijack but what @mbosnz has described sounds exactly like my family dynamics. Divide and conquer, I also have no relationship between my siblings and I thought it was just the way our family worked

My dad and his brother only discovered that they really liked each other as people in their sixties when my gran died. (Five year age gap plus my dad went away to school at 13 so they didn’t hugely interact as children.)

It’s a real shame but the habit was that my dad (plus wife and kids once we all turned up) would stay at my gran’s and then my uncle would come over with his family.

My parents have realised what a shame that was and how they missed out in 40 years of having an adult relationship together. Whenever we all visit they babysit for all the kids and send me, Dh, DB and SIL out for dinner together. It is very nice.

@saraclara, I totally understand why she wants everyone together, it's the "do what I want now" attitude that's an issue and not being happy for the brothers to see each other without her. This is just am example but there are many other instances where she expects us to jump when she clicks her fingers.

@CommanderBurnham, they really haven't had a chance to have a normal separate relationship and it's sad to see. DH won't ask DBIL this time as it would put him in a tough spot as DMIL has already invited us. We'll go but say to DBIL that he's invited here next time as always.

@Justilou1, she certainly is. Unfortunately DBIL feels guilty and would feel like he was betraying her. The only two times we've met without her, he's not properly relaxed. It's a work in progress.

Sorry to hear @Teaandtoastedbiscuits, some controlling people out there.

Thank you all. Well go this time but make a point of not going every time just because it suits her. We'll also work on seeing DBIL on his own more.

@Mumoftwoinprimary, oh that's sad to miss out on so many years, its such a bizarre way to be. Great that your dad encourages it with you and your brother.

Well, that sounds like a HIM problem. DH can start small then. Make it a “You didn’t let us know that were coming. We’re already pretty booked up this weekend. We’d love catch up though, so we’ve reorganized things to pick you up for a couple of drinks for an hour or so, then we’ll drop you back at Mum’s before we head off to the event at @Treesandsheepeverywhere’s family/friends.” (Get him shitfaced and drop him back rolling drunk. See what happens 🤪)

'It's not about not seeing each other, but about being expected to be available when she wants and her wanting DH to accept invitations on the spot.'

'When we spent 5 days over Christmas with her, at parting she said "see you at the weekend" even though neither of us had made plans with her'

If it's the presuming you want to see her and will at short notice that gets you, then I do think YABU. (I'm not sure it is just that, but you've said that's just it.)

I think you DON'T want to spend time with her, because of all the difficulties you've mentioned of her being mean to your DH.

And that's the awkwardness. There's an imbalance of power. She is desperate to spend as much time as possible with her sons. She's alone. She was and would still like to be a very involved parent.

But she can't be. Because they have their adult lives. And don't need her.

Many many of us have parents and/or parents in law who are a bit of a pain. (I'm not talking the seriously abusive here - just the exhausting, bewildering pains in the neck). So it's a labour of love to meet up when they want and grant them the pleasure of being included. But personally I feel we owe it to them.

I wouldn't mind someone saying omg the elusive BIL is going to be here - can you guys come round for dinner?

It's not short notice because of MIL - that's on BIL.

She has two kids. Wants to see them together. I'm a bit suspicious of you needing to 'protect' him so have to go too - if you don't want to, let him go alone.

Let him - what am I saying? TBH you do sound a tiny bit like you also like to call the shots. I think this is what ruffles you about this interaction.

I'd say lonely yes we'd love to come. But then I'm a pussy cat....

@diddl

What does he get out of his relationship with her though?

I mean he's been conditioned obviously.

But a grown man walking into another room to be given a dressing down by his Mum whilst leaving his gfriend in another room.

Utter madness.

This. The op’ s husband may benefit from counselling, he needs to think about why he let that happen.

Typo - I'd say Lovely

It doesn't do to be a pushover, but I don't think accepting this invite is being a pushover.

Well, only in that it's allowing BIL to turn up at short notice.

So you live in the same town as your MIL? What’s the problem with popping in for an hour after work for a cup of tea or something? It’s not wrong of her to want to see everyone together.

Well if the brother can't/won't meet up without his Mum's knowledge/approval/permission that adds another layer of difficulty.

But your husband needs to think about what he can cope with & what he's asking others to do also to maintain a bullying/abusive relationship with his mum.

I don't think I'd facilitate it tbh.

You really need to put your foot down, this is suffocating just reading it.

P.s. did you get your spar key back from MIL?

I’m curious, OP - where does YOUR family fit in when you’re spending every holiday and special occasion with her? I think you need to keep encouraging the brothers to meet independently and hopefully the more they do it, the more the guilt will ease.

@Justilou1, 🤣, unfortunately they're both too sensible and have never been drunk. I get what you mean about it being a HIM problem, but as we're a team I'd like to support him where I can.

@Aphrodite31If it's the presuming you want to see her and will at short notice that gets you, then I do think YABU. (I'm not sure it is just that, but you've said that's just it.)
Why is it unreasonable to be annoyed at her expecting us to be available when it suits her? We'd spent 5 days with her over Christmas, week before Christmas DH and I had taken her to see the Christmas lights, which she loves to do. We had one week off work, so for her to assume we'd spend the following weekend with her as well was surprising to both of us. Especially without asking what our plans were: resting and visiting my side of the family.....
Yes I like for it to be dh and I who call the shots on our time/plans.
It's not just the asking, but the forcefulness of it. What dh said he'd check with me she snapped "don't you want to see your brother" followed by the big sigh.
Good point about it being DBIL's short notice and not hers. Thank you.

@Northernparent68, the being called into the other room happened twice before dh mentioned it to me. She would call him into a different with the pretence of needing help with something. So when we next went I'd offer to help too or go to find them as soon as I realise she's cornered him (at dh's request.
It sounds worse as I write it but I didn't realise the dynamics until way in.

@SarahBellam, it's not about not wanting to see her, but about her expecting us to drop everything everything when she wants to see us.

@diddl, thanks. They both naturally feel sorry for her that she's alone, as do I. Hence why I involved her a lot when we started dating.
It was only as time went by when I realised how controlling she was and wanted to be involved in our plans as a couple.

@Fraine, thank you. It is suffocating. You got me!!! 😅. Still haven't got the key back 🙈. Decided as we're moving, we just won't give her the new key.

@Loudestcat14, that's the thing, she takes (used to) centre stage as I felt sorry for her but she wanted more and more time.
When we saw her a couple of weeks ago, we mentioned we'd seen my sister the weekend before she commented she could have come too 🤔.
Thank you all. And to think dh and I are considering having Christmas as just us two this year 😬.