"I'm Irish American"

[MacMahon]

I've noticed that to many Americans their Irish, Scots, Italian etc. roots are a big part of their current identity. As a nation of immigrants in a New World I can see why this link to earlier generations is interesting and important.

But it's also something I find confusing.

I live in Yorkshire. I'm English. I have Irish ancestors on both side (great grandparents and great x2 grandparents). If I was in America this would quite possibly be a big deal. I'd be an Irish American and identify with the struggles and persecution that my people suffered at the hands of the English. But I wasn't born in America, I was born in Leeds, and my Irish ancestry play zero role in my identity.

I'm on an ancestry group and Americans are getting that DNA test done and finding out that, contrary to family lore that they are Cherokee or Mexican or Italian Americans, they're actually pretty much 'just' 100% British.

It makes me wonder how authentic this celebrating or identifying with their Irish/First Nations/Italian roots is, and how much is just (mistaken) tribalism and division.

English culture, language and political systems have in fact been massively influential, way out of proportion to the size of the country. Yes but not without the use of guns which is a bit of an image problem….

@Fordian what I'm asking is do you think there's a difference between saying Greek-Australian or Australian-Greek?

@derxa

I'm not sure how tartan and kilts, which are rarely worn at all in contemporary Scotland You must be joking

Not at all.

I've spent a fair bit of time in Scotland and never saw anyone in a kilt except at weddings or occassional cultural events. How likely is someone to turn up at an office in Glasgow or get on a bus in Edinburgh wearing full tartan and kilt?

@Emilyontmoor

English culture, language and political systems have in fact been massively influential, way out of proportion to the size of the country. Yes but not without the use of guns which is a bit of an image problem….

Not always. English pop music, for example, is extrmely popular around the world. English universities are also very highly regarded internationally.

@MarshaBradyo

In Britain the pressure to conform is huge. You don't highlight your differences. There is strong prejudice against Tall Poppies and 'different' in general.

Whereabouts do you live?

I thought the same!

We're not Danish! We don't cut down the tall poppy! We envy their wealth! There's feck all egalitarianism happening in English society, where you think we seek to 'cut down' those poppies!

Footy teams? My DH is a staunch Arsenal supporter. He's from central Queensland, Australia. He liked the style of football they were playing.

English/British schooling - well to used to be. That’s how a chunk of my family were educated here. DSs school has a lot of kids from abroad there too.

And the political system did not evolve in some sort of enlightened vacuum. European philosophers, thinkers, architects etc were long influenced by ideas that came from the East. Orientalism did not emerge as a feature of British society until Victorian times and then it was justification for exploitation. Prior to that we benefitted from an exchange of ideas and culture.

Being from o/s people seem more down on English culture on here

Not all, but many

We had a fair bit of it on other side of world

lljkk 'I live now in a small town in rural East Anglia. I know a lot about local pressure to conform.'

I hadn't read this before I posted about how 'cutting the tall poppy down' is not an 'English trait'.

A small town in rural East Anglia is hardly representative of England as a whole, where, as a whole, we're surrounded by diversity and difference. Which we, as a whole, either embrace or are learning to embrace.

I'm sorry if your local area is mired in the same small-town thinking that must benight much of rural America (cf Trump); but the comparison ends there.

Iced Yes we have benefitted from great artistic creativity but what are the roots that it emerged from? The Blues in America as much as British folk and indeed eastern music (see the Beatles) You do know that the most popular pop group in the world at the moment is Korean?

As to universities I doubt you will find any Oxbridge Don who does not ascribe some of their academic success to absorbing ideas from elsewhere, particularly the Middle East and Asia. It is just there has been a 200 year project to erase that influence and agency.

@Emilyontmoor

Iced Yes we have benefitted from great artistic creativity but what are the roots that it emerged from? The Blues in America as much as British folk and indeed eastern music (see the Beatles) You do know that the most popular pop group in the world at the moment is Korean?

As to universities I doubt you will find any Oxbridge Don who does not ascribe some of their academic success to absorbing ideas from elsewhere, particularly the Middle East and Asia. It is just there has been a 200 year project to erase that influence and agency.

Why so down on achievements here?

It is odd.

Of course many are attracted to what London or England have to offer and that is based on a positive perception

@Emilyontmoor

Iced Yes we have benefitted from great artistic creativity but what are the roots that it emerged from? The Blues in America as much as British folk and indeed eastern music (see the Beatles) You do know that the most popular pop group in the world at the moment is Korean?

As to universities I doubt you will find any Oxbridge Don who does not ascribe some of their academic success to absorbing ideas from elsewhere, particularly the Middle East and Asia. It is just there has been a 200 year project to erase that influence and agency.

Some strawman arguments here.

I never said that British or English culture developed in a vacumn. Of course it didn't. No culture did. You're constructing arguments against something I never said.

And yes, Korean pop is having a moment, but English and British pop music has enjoyed great success going back decades.

To deny that England and its culture has been massively influential, and not just because of 'guns', is ridiculou. But then, this is MN.

@IsleofRum

Or "African American".

It's fine for the initial immigrant and first generation a little. But in you are born and live in the country you should accept that country as home. Otherwise keep a little connection if you like, but not seriously.

For African Americans the memories of segregation are very recent, you look different and are often still treated differently by American society.

Someone whose great-great-great grandfather migrated from Ireland? No one will have the foggiest idea until you tell them. They won't treat you any differently to any other American. You probably don't have a clue who St Patrick was, you may not even be able to point to Ireland on a map, let alone have you visited. The other 31 of your great-great-great grandparents may well have been of English descent so even if you think blood is important, there's precious little Irish blood in your veins. And yet you claim to be Irish even though you have no more in common with an Irishman than I do.

I saw posted on here a couple of years back that someone landed at a US airport on St Patrick's Day and there was recorded bagpipe music playing over the tannoy because (as one member of staff said) "everyone's Irish on St Patrick's Day!"

The tune being played was Scotland the Brave

I've spent a fair bit of time in Scotland and never saw anyone in a kilt except at weddings or occassional cultural events. How likely is someone to turn up at an office in Glasgow or get on a bus in Edinburgh wearing full tartan and kilt? 🤣🤣🤣 With an attitude like that it's no surprise that you didn't get invited to many weddings or events. Anybody working in a Glasgow office wears a suit no matter what their heritage. Most of my male contemporaries have their own kilt.

@Parker231

DH is French Canadian and refers to himself as that. Signifies his background.

A bit different when there are very clear things which set you apart from the other four-fifths of the Canadian population. A different first language for a start.

With an attitude like that it's no surprise that you didn't get invited to many weddings or events

A very strange conclusion to draw, but that's up to you.

Most of my male contemporaries have their own kilt.

How many days a year do you think they wear it, on average?

I remember having a great row with a boatload of Irish-Americans over to campaign against the 2015 marriage referendum here...the fecking cheek of them, interfering in another country's democratic process "because that's what my great granny would have wanted"

I suppose the irony here is how interfering in their democratic processes would be viewed

Reminds me of being asked - in Boston of all places - what the Brits thought about 9/11. I said truthfully that it was an appalling tragedy, but since the subject was terrorism I also mentioned how regrettable it was that some in the US had funded our own IRA for years

Didn't go down well ...

Marsha Icy I am not putting English culture down, in fact if you read my posts you will see me cheerleading it’s distinctive character. It is just there is a difference between being distinctive and being exceptional. We are not exceptional and it is a reaction to that illusion of exceptionalism and a colonial past that is behind some of the comments on here that are putting English culture down.

@derxa

I've spent a fair bit of time in Scotland and never saw anyone in a kilt except at weddings or occassional cultural events. How likely is someone to turn up at an office in Glasgow or get on a bus in Edinburgh wearing full tartan and kilt? 🤣🤣🤣 With an attitude like that it's no surprise that you didn't get invited to many weddings or events. Anybody working in a Glasgow office wears a suit no matter what their heritage. Most of my male contemporaries have their own kilt.

None of my lot have a kilt. Dad said they don’t have the legs for it (he point blanc refused to wear one at my wedding!)

@Emilyontmoor

Marsha Icy I am not putting English culture down, in fact if you read my posts you will see me cheerleading it’s distinctive character. It is just there is a difference between being distinctive and being exceptional. We are not exceptional and it is a reaction to that illusion of exceptionalism and a colonial past that is behind some of the comments on here that are putting English culture down.

I never said anything about English culture being 'exceptional', so you're strawmanning again.

What I did say is that English culture has been extremely influential. That's simply a fact.

How likely is someone to turn up at an office in Glasgow or get on a bus in Edinburgh wearing full tartan and kilt?

As a Glaswegian I can honestly say if someone turned up to work in an office in a kilt there would be some raised eyebrows and folk would definitely talk.

@Puzzledandpissedoff - I also mentioned how regrettable it was that some in the US had funded our own IRA for years

The IRA are not British as you seem to be implying by referring to them as "our own". The lack of recognition of the nationalist community's Irishness and the outright discrimination against them in housing, employment and education is what led to the Troubles in the first place. Doesn't excuse terrorism but you only have to see how the British responded to peaceful civil rights marches to understand why a minority of nationalists felt they had no other choice but to resort to violence.

Marsha It is odd

Amongst my academic and business peers it is not at all odd to try and take an objective view of English culture in relation to other cultures. Business obviously depends on it in international markets, however much sidelined that perspective has been in the U.K. recently, and academically orientalism is an accepted historical phenomenon in British history. The academic debate is more about the subtle nuances of influence and exchange and the role of occidentalism in that process (because exceptionalism is not actually the sole preserve of the English).

None of my lot have a kilt. Dad said they don’t have the legs for it

I’m sure they only do that in weddings and stuff like that.

I find it very cruel when Italians say : that’s not Italian , all these Americans are only going to tourist traps , it’s not the real Italy. I’ve been to so many "real"Italy places , so many of the beaten track sort of places , small towns in Sardinia , ,Sicily. What I found is very little to zero Authenticity , it’s no different to any small town in Spain , Portugal or Greece . It’s all apartment blocks , A Small corner shop, liquor shop , bar , pizza place etc.
No one from the new generation is actually interested in preserving their own culture.
Maybe it’s the Italian American who will!

I'm not sure how tartan and kilts, which are rarely worn at all in contemporary Scotland and were never universally worn, constitute a 'distinctive culture'. If you want to take twee historical relics like that as evidence, then Morris dancing, bowling on the green, and afternoon tea mean the same thing for "English culture"

You are missing my point - it's the Americans and Canadians coming to Scotland to 'claim their tartan', not the Scots! The kilt turns up more on a Scots body when Scotland plays Rugby and at weddings.