to think Taylor Swift is our century's answer to William Shakespeare

[beastlyslumber]

She's such an incredible storyteller and lyricist (and her songs are ridiculously catchy. It's all about the hooks.) Listening to her album 'folkore' this afternoon - she wrote two whole albums in lockdown, you know. And they're both great, but 'folklore' is insanely good. As she moves away from autobiographical writing into character stories, her storytelling is getting even more emotionally direct, and even more fun. She's a total genius. Even on the rare occasions when her hooks and melodies don't grip you, her lyrics always get right to the heart of things.

If there's any justice in the world, Ms Swift will still be celebrated in 500 years for her original, moving, funny, perceptive and subversive writing.

YANBU = Obviously! She is the Bard of Pop
YABU = WTF? She's way better than Shakespeare

@smoko

Taylor swift has received criticism for being anti feminist FYI

it’s no coincidence that the “evil” girls in her clips are always dark brunettes. She really seems to dislike brunette women!

Does she have a chip on her shoulder that she isn’t exotic?

She isn’t about girl power, she arguably tears other women down by painting herself as the “not like the other girls”

I don’t know all her videos but isn’t the brunette thing just because it’s the opposite to her? For example in you belong with me, in the video she plays both characters, so the easiest way to distinguish is to change clothes and put a brunette wig on. A brunette singer would have put a blonde wig on.

She’s been vocal about sexual assault, stated she’s “obviously pro choice”, and when she came out in support of the democrat candidate in her state, listed the republican woman’s track record on domestic violence (and LGBT equality) as reasons.
(She’s also pro gun control which I know isn’t a feminist issue but I mention it just because I think it’s the other big political issue she has come down on one side of)

I’m not saying that therefore she’s an amazing feminist by the way, and you can definitely critique some of her earlier songs as being a bit “I’m not like other girls” as you’ve said (although I think the fact she’s now in her early thirties and some of the songs were written when she was 15/16/17 is relevant).

She also did her civic duty and did dury duty. Not many of her status would.

@AlphabetAerobics

She also did her civic duty and did dury duty. Not many of her status would.

It looks as if she didn't actually have to do it in the end. She was excused because of her own court case at the time.

www.theguardian.com/music/2016/aug/30/taylor-swift-excused-jury-duty-nashville

I don't get why everyone is banging on about shake it off? She's released so many songs!

Because lyrically it’s her “weak spot” I guess, and they’d rather just point to that and use it an an example of her not being any good and consider it case closed, than embrace the possibility that Pop Princess Taylor Swift might actually have a song or two that appeal to even their highbrow tastes…

Basically it’s just snobbery.

@AngeloMysterioso

I don't get why everyone is banging on about shake it off? She's released so many songs!

Because lyrically it’s her “weak spot” I guess, and they’d rather just point to that and use it an an example of her not being any good and consider it case closed, than embrace the possibility that Pop Princess Taylor Swift might actually have a song or two that appeal to even their highbrow tastes…

Basically it’s just snobbery.

Or that not everyone is familiar with every single song Taylor Swift has ever written? Name any artist and people will have a song that springs to mind based on what they've heard from them on the radio etc.

I haven't seen Ronan mentioned. It's a beautiful, gut-wrenching song, I challenge people to listen/watch her performance of it and not well up.

I must be missing something as I find her songs boring and extremely overrated.

Or that not everyone is familiar with every single song Taylor Swift has ever written?
Name any artist and people will have a song that springs to mind based on what they've heard from them on the radio etc.

I agree with this, some people are only aware of a handful of songs which will inform their opinion. But also, people are coming on this thread which is about her excellent song-writing and quoting the one song they know as "evidence" that she isn't a good song writer. I wouldn't go on a thread about Adele's upbeat music and claim she only ever writes miserable songs because that's what I have heard on the radio, I would be aware that she has loads of songs I haven't heard because I have never listened to a whole album. I wouldn't presume I know better than people actually familiar with her body of work.

I took my daughter to see her Reputation tour. I wasn't that fussed beforehand but she was amazing. Managed to make you feel like she was talking to a small group of people when there were thousands there.
I feel sorry for her that when she stood up for herself she was made to look like a bitch and now people have an opinion of her based on what the media wanted her to be portrayed as. Obvs I don't know her and am basing my own options on the Netflix doc and the stuff she posts with her mum. (I cannot listen to 'Soon you'll get better' as we lost a family member just before the album was released and it's too painful)
My daughter can't wait for her to release the next 'Taylor's version' album as she hates that the guy who bought her albums gets the royalties for Taylor's work.

@Ifyoudontlikeitdosomethingelse

Shake it off is not a great song... How are our brains so different? What are you hearing that I'm not?! I think I'm not attuned to pop music or something. I just don't understand. It's like eating McDonald's or watching eastenders or reading take a break. It's feels like it's for the simple minded.

There might actually be something in this, because I have four first class / with distinction degrees, two in English literature, but the feedback on my masters dissertation did say ‘While we loved the writer’s novel approach and superb writing skills, we are unable to shake off the creeping suspicion that she is simple minded.’

I always wondered why. Maybe they heard me humming Shake It Off when I handed it in?

@User527294627 Yes, without a doubt.

@StrongerThanA90sTrend

I agree! Though, I'd say this generations Bob Dylan.

Her songwriting has improved greatly, esp with the two lockdown albums. I adore her. Am a bit obsessed with her at the moment.

I only listen to her albums from Red onwards, but genuinely believe each one gets better and better. Her Reputation album is also wonderful. Gah, love her! (See user name)

Aaaah your username!! I agree her songwriting has got better and better. I love the character stuff she's doing now. I love the autobiographical stuff too, but I think she is finding new strengths these days as she grows older and more confident in herself.

@Ifyoudontlikeitdosomethingelse

Shake it off is not a great song... How are our brains so different? What are you hearing that I'm not?! I think I'm not attuned to pop music or something. I just don't understand. It's like eating McDonald's or watching eastenders or reading take a break. It's feels like it's for the simple minded.

It’s also not her only song. FFS.

But well done you for being so much more refined than us simple minded folk who enjoy a Big Mac and listen to Taylor Swift.

Thanks very much @AngeloMysterioso.

@smoko

To the person who criticised Eminem for writing a song about killing his girlfriend - you know who else wrote about murder a fair bit?

Shakespeare!

It’s a clever, confronting commentary on the fine line between love & hate

Also lyrically the song “Kim” has a lot more hidden meanings, messaging & references than you might expect if you aren’t familiar with his artistry as a whole

It’s a song which makes you uncomfortable, has elements of humour, rage, retaliation…

It’s the dark side of being brokenhearted

It’s too early here for me to intellectualise it much more, but this track has been discussed & dissected a lot.

I agree with you, Eminem is ridiculously talented. And it's fine for writers to write about whatever they choose. It's so simple-minded to think that writing about murder means you condone murder, or writing an evil character makes you evil. It's like people don't understand fiction at all!

@thecombineharvester

I like a lot of TS, but didn't love folklore, though I'm going to give it another go... At the moment though I can't stop listening to Dirty Computer by Janelle Monae, it's just incredible! Not as recent (2018) but every single song on there is brilliant.

Oh god yes that album is sooooooo good. I had that on repeat for months. Love her videos as well. She is insanely good.

Just listened to a track off folklore. No

@CascadeOceanWaveBlues

I don't think I was a very good feminist in my late teens/early 20's either. She's early 30's now and you can see how much she has grown and changed, I think she definitely seems to be more about building women up these days.

I honestly don't care about the politics of the artists I like. I really don't. We're all different, different life experiences and different views. I don't need the people who entertain me to have the same views as me. I mean, I'd prefer it if they don't actually kill or hurt people (and wouldn't give my money to a living artist who was doing that) but otherwise, I don't care. TS doesn't represent me in any way. I just love her music and writing.

Having said that, I agree, her perspective has changed as she's got older - which is pretty normal, I think? Also not sure how normal a woman she's ever going to be, given her early fame, vast wealth, talent and beauty.

@Joystir59

Just listened to a track off folklore. No

Which song did you choose?

@FrankButchersDickieBow

Nrtft and I'm sure it has been said by many. But Amy winehouse is the bard. Love is a losing game, is the most sublime song ever.

Over futile odds
And laughed at by the gods
And now the final frame
Love is a losing game

Makes me cry every time I hear it ❤

Oh Amy.

I think her first album Frank is way underrated and actually prefer it to Back to Black. But you're right, she was beyond special.

@SummaLuvin

*Or that not everyone is familiar with every single song Taylor Swift has ever written? Name any artist and people will have a song that springs to mind based on what they've heard from them on the radio etc.*

I agree with this, some people are only aware of a handful of songs which will inform their opinion. But also, people are coming on this thread which is about her excellent song-writing and quoting the one song they know as "evidence" that she isn't a good song writer. I wouldn't go on a thread about Adele's upbeat music and claim she only ever writes miserable songs because that's what I have heard on the radio, I would be aware that she has loads of songs I haven't heard because I have never listened to a whole album. I wouldn't presume I know better than people actually familiar with her body of work.

Exactly If someone started a thread about Ed Sheeran, I'd not say anything because I know two songs. Even though he has a Big Reputation

I've really enjoyed this thread, by the way! It's made me laugh a lot (and obviously I've experienced evil glee in tricking people into voting for me ). I've been having a rough time lately and it has cheered me up to talk about the music and writing we love and are passionate about. Shakespeare and Taylor Swift both always inspire me. And I love being reminded of other artists I love, and being introduced to new-to-me talents. So, thanks all!

Wasn't Shake It Off a response to everyone who says she's stupid and vapid and ditsy? I'd write deliberately facile lyrics for a song like that in order to wind them up some more...

Oh, and REM deliberately wrote simple lyrics for Everybody Hurts in order to make it accessible and easy to understand. It was a plea to people considering suicide, especially teenagers, not to do it. They didn't want it to be a "difficult" song, they wanted people who might need to hear it to understand very easily.

And Stand was an affectionate pisstake of silly "inspirational" songs. Stipe said he deliberately wrote the daftest lyrics he could.

I'm guessing all that was OK...

(I love REM.)

Shake it Off was also written in collaboration with Max Martin, who is a pop music behemoth writer and producer, but also quite known for prioritising catchy melody and therefore poor lyrics (what does the chorus of 'I Want It That Way' even mean???). Same for the other song being frequently mocked on this thread, We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together. I'd suggest that on those songs, choosing Max as collaborator suggests the lyrical end result is exactly what she was going for.