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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be shocked that 16 year old didn't know about apartheid

506 replies

biddlybop · 28/10/2021 09:12

Recently, I was having a conversation with a teen in the family and mentioned apartheid (think we were talking about films and books based on true events). They asked what apartheid was. I explained, and they had never heard of it.

I was genuinely shocked. We were taught about it in school - in both history, and English. I'm 30, so I wasn't educated decades ago.

Is this not in the curriculum anymore, or is it just her school? I think it's really important that young people are taught about these events, especially as racism is still such a problem.

OP posts:
MadameMinimes · 29/10/2021 23:25

@Ibelieveinghosts

I think it’s important to point out that the whole “Stalin killed more people than Hitler” thing is old Cold War propaganda. The fact is that around 90% or more of the people who went into the gulag survived and the best estimates for the number that died in the gulags is somewhere in the region of 1.5 million over a period of 20 or so years. The nazis killed 6 million Jews and a total of around 11 million civilians, with most of those deaths happening between 1941-1945. Stalin was an awful leader, and his crimes are horrific enough, but during the Cold War the number of people he killed was dramatically overestimated for ideological reasons.

We should not be teaching children that Stalin killed more people than Hitler because it isn’t true. Even if you add the famine deaths to his “toll”, which is a fundamentally different thing to systematically gassing people to death IMO, the numbers still don’t stack up.

Otherpeoplesteens · 29/10/2021 23:36

@mustlovegin

[O]ther nations do not have to act in our best interests. Why should we take their views as gospel? What you seem to be suggesting is that we had better toe the line or else.

Not at all. But the UK is a weak nation no matter how you skin this particular cat, and the only way to increase its influence is to build alliances with like-minded nations, through shared sovereignty or at the very least through shared interests - be that a common enemy or a common goal. If Dunkirk didn't wipe away the last vestiges of belief that Britain could go it alone, then I imagine Suez did.

We're never going to achieve that without understanding our would-be allies' interests or goals. If the UK cannot or will not do that, then toeing the line is the best that we can hope for.

Your and others' similar posts (as I don't mean to put you on the spot) relay a feeling of detachment. Very rarely someone with any deep sense of belonging or loyalty to their land and fellow countrymen would express opinions in this way.

Once again, your interpretation of fact results in your version of truth which is bollocks. I have a Portuguese first name and a Silesian family name, and I speak fluent Cantonese, but if you met me in the street you'd mistake me for being related to Jacob Rees-Mogg long before you'd think I was related to Cristiano Ronaldo. I am foreign, but I am also British. I have nevertheless spent my life since the age of nine justifying my presence in Britain and I'm getting rather sick of it. I am amazed that anybody could interpret my life as displaying detachment when I have spent it consciously putting down roots here.

I refuse to show wilful blindness to the UK's many problems simply out of a sense of loyalty or belonging, because that does not achieve anything. I express dissatisfaction with life in the UK precisely because I have a deep sense of loyalty to it, and with that comes both a desire and a duty to improve it. I have spent much of my life around born-and-bred
Brits who have lived overseas and - with the benefit of that experience - think the same as me. It's nothing to do with detachment, everything to do with the fact that we are not blinkered by blind faith in British or English exceptionalism.

[D]o you not think it's rather tone deaf and disingenuous to suggest that we need to encourage negativity and self-flagellation for the sake of it and start to focus on events that didn't even take place here like apartheid?

You are the only one who has described understanding the facts of history as "negativity" or "self-flagellation." I'll give you an example of why something like apartheid, in a far off land, has consequences for totally disconnected people today, and how understanding it makes people's lives easier, if not necessarily better.

I mentioned previously that my mother was Portuguese, from Mozambique. In the run up to Mozambican independence in 1975 my parents were among the quarter of a million or so who were ordered to leave. Mine went to Macau, many went back to Portugal with nothing but the clothes on their backs, and the rest generally went penniless to South Africa. Those who settled in SA often took up skilled trades - carpentry, plumbing, electrician work - which white South Africans didn't want to do, but for which the training and education wasn't available to blacks. They settled and integrated. Some even set up international businesses like Nando's. But come the end of apartheid all those skilled trade jobs became accessible to black South Africans. All well and good.

The Portuguese in SA found themselves priced out of the jobs they'd been doing for 20 years, and most of them didn't have the skills to go on to the professional classes where, if they did, they were also competing with post-apartheid blacks. Many tens of thousands of Portuguese citizens - and their children, who had been born and raised in South Africa and often spoke English or Afrikaans as a first language - went back to continental Portugal and had to be absorbed there.

Now, if you are a British retiree or holiday home owner in the Algarve, and you never learned a word of Portuguese (i.e. most of them) you'll seek out businesses where people speak English. If you're a British holidaymaker and need to go into a bank you'll ask if anyone speaks English. A huge number of the people you'll encounter are Portuguese retornados from South Africa.

None of this is a problem, really. But every so often, if you hang around them long and often enough, you'll hear one refer to "the Dutch," and it's usually not complementary. Given the number of people from Amsterdam, Eindhoven or Nijmegen who have also settled in the Algarve you'd be forgiven for thinking that these Portuguese-Saffas had an issue with folk from the Netherlands. You'd be wrong. They had simply lived under an apartheid pecking-order which as well as discriminating against people of colour (unlike what they had in Mozambique or Angola) also differentiated between white Portuguese, whites of British origin, and Afrikaaners - the "Dutch" to whom they are actually referring.

Those who don't understand the history behind it jump in feet first at drinks parties in southern Portugal - which had literally nothing to do with apartheid - at their peril.

MadameMinimes · 29/10/2021 23:41

Also the number of people killed in witch hunts in Britain was tiny. Likely around 1,000 over a period of well over 200 years and definitely no more than 2,000. Elsewhere in Europe there were pockets of witch hunting but the grand total estimate for the whole of Europe from the late 1400s to the late 1700s is usually put somewhere in the region of 50,000. For comparison, that is fewer than the estimated number of people being murdered by the Nazis every 4 days at the peak of the holocaust in the Autumn of 1942.

feelingsareweird · 29/10/2021 23:55

I have a PhD in history and have never been formally taught about apartheid. But I was a teenager in the 90s and was reasonably exposed to current affairs so i knew about it as a teen for sure, probably from newsround!

@mustlovegin you’re quite right that history is not just facts but interpretation. But why would anyone who has even a vague understanding of that need or want ‘a deep sense of belonging or loyalty to their land’?! Surely an understanding of history as inherently subjective shows you that nationalism is a construct and has no real meaning or value? What we need to be teaching students is that being ‘British’ has and always has had a host of different meanings, some good, many bad. And all intimately tied up with the rest of the world.

me109f · 29/10/2021 23:58

Last gasp of british colonialism. Best forgotten about.

I spent some time in Oklahoma in 1985 and South Africa was more in the news than the rest of the World put together, the USA news featured it every day, and I think it was to offset the racial troubles in the US at the time.
In 1988 I visited SA for a couple of weeks, spending time in a couple of townships as well as Johannesburg and Cape Town and a trip to Kruger National Park on a quick safari (very few tourists). It was still in apartheit but I never saw any troubles in my travels. I had never ever seen a country with less police presence, and saw no army presence at all. I make no excuses for the apartheit system, but I freely wandered everwhere and loved the place. Best food I have had in any country, it was wonderfully peaceful and the best agriculture and infrastructure in Africa.
At school, history only went up to 1914 for me. There was a policy not to teach politics wars or recent history so as not to politically influence or bias pupils. This sort of thing can easily be learnt from TV, books and newspapers.

mustlovegin · 30/10/2021 00:11

Surely an understanding of history as inherently subjective shows you that nationalism is a construct

'construct' these days seems to stand for any aspect of reality that a minority of people don't like and want to eradicate by trying (and failing) to convince others that it doesn't exist. Let's not go there...

feelingsareweird · 30/10/2021 00:16

@mustlovegin

Surely an understanding of history as inherently subjective shows you that nationalism is a construct

'construct' these days seems to stand for any aspect of reality that a minority of people don't like and want to eradicate by trying (and failing) to convince others that it doesn't exist. Let's not go there...

Of course nationalism exists. But surely what you’ve just argued supports the idea that it was created by politicians, using their interpretations of history, to justify all sorts of things… such as empire, ‘Britishness’, ‘British values’ etc etc. ?
mustlovegin · 30/10/2021 00:22

it was created by politicians, using their interpretations of history, to justify all sorts of things

The sense of belonging to your own group and attachment to the land is not 'invented by politicians'. It's a feeling, call it patriotism if you wish, but it's definitely not a 'construct'

BiLuminous · 30/10/2021 00:24

I'd be shocked too. My 9yo knows. I bought her books about it but she knew already.

As for people who don't read not knowing things- I read constantly during my childhood and didn't learn about much of black history, or history at all, because it never interested me. My world knowledge is very poor because I constantly read fiction. Only in the last few years (in my 30s) have I started to learn.

ThinWomansBrain · 30/10/2021 00:43

I was at school in the 60's - 70's - aware of it through current affairs in the 70's, but can still recall being shocked to learn a bit about it in later years at primary school; we had these colour coded learning and comprehension cards, and I distinctly remember one about the death of Martin Luther King - but other than that, no formal teaching about it. (Does anyone else remember those SRA reading cards, I used to love them!)
Equally, although I knew bits about the war, there was little formal teaching about it - I didn't learn about the holocaust or the occupation of France until mid teens, when on a french exchange stay.
Most history featured on Romans, Tudors & Stuarts - with little joining of the gaps in between!

WithANameLikeDaniCalifornia · 30/10/2021 00:48

history is facts

Oh dear, who told you that?

Otherpeoplesteens · 30/10/2021 01:10

@mustlovegin

Actually, I'm intrigued as to where you think 'my land' actually is.

Is it Macau, where I was born, but have not lived in since I was six? Is it Hong Kong, where my older formative years were but where I have never worked, and where I have not stepped foot since the British withdrew in 1997? The current sovereign power there certainly doesn't think so to either of these, since the research for my MA thesis was incorporated into an academic paper I cosigned in 1998 outlining how the international community could intervene in Hong Kong or Macau if the PRC failed to uphold the Joint Declaration: I am designated a national security threat to the land of my birth, subject to arrest and extradition anywhere in the world.

Is it Poland, the land of my father's birth even though it was in Germany at the time and he fled as a refugee when he was a baby? I've been once to Warsaw for business, and once to Krakow as a tourist on a city break. I need a phrasebook to order a drink in a bar there.

Germany? Really?

Is it Mozambique, the land of my mother's birth? I've never been.

Perhaps Portugal. My parents moved there when I was still at school to a village where my mother's family dominate the graveyard. I call it my home town in the absence of a better focal point because I at least had the luxury of seeing blood relatives there, and I go a couple of times a year to visit my aged, now-widowed, father, but I've never lived or worked there.

The wild card would be Israel, the logical end to the journey my father started as a one year old baby in 1939 when he was shoved into the arms of a stranger on a train, all his worldly details on an index card. But I'm not actually Jewish and cannot exercise Aliyah.

Or is it Britain, warts and all, where I was sent in 1985 as a nine year old despite having no connections apart from my father's former foster family in Yorkshire, and have made my home ever since? The only place in the world where I qualify for jury service. The place where I served in HM Armed Forces, then the NHS, and stepped up in civic duties such as fostering children myself (hence the username)?

If I had been born six hours earlier, before my mother took a ferry home to Macau, I would have been born in Hong Kong (under the British flag) and therefore excluded from living in Britain, so it is certainly NOT a sense of patriotism. I've spent my whole life reconciling with the idea that Britain and many Britons would rather I wasn't here, and that I was able to settle here precisely because I was - as an EU citizen - foreign. So yeah, leave the politicians - and their voters - out. Britain is simply the place I've called home the longest, and therefore where I've made the most effort to make it home.

Strokethefurrywall · 30/10/2021 02:49

My dad is a “colored” South African, descended from slavery that escaped apartheid in 1965 and made it to England after his father died.
I still don’t know as much as I should about apartheid and it sure as shit wasn’t taught in white, middle class Surrey when I was growing up. My dad never likes to talk about it but at the same time he was in his tweens when he left.

We currently live in the Caribbean and my kids will learn about it all - slavery, apartheid, BLM.

I’m not surprised children now don’t know about apartheid. If you spent every history lesson discovering the atrocities of the world, they’d never leave. But it’s important that children every where don’t just learn about their own local history (such as confining UK schools to learn about ww1/2 only) but giving them a rounded education about all of them.

Mollymoostoo · 30/10/2021 08:07

There is a lot of work going on at the moment around de-colonizing the curriculum as the history taught is very white. BLM and Windrush is very much on the agenda and trips to Wilberforce House and the international slavery museum.
IME as a teacher, some staff are afraid to talk about issues, but we try to talk about what is relatable such as the Ugandan Indians being forced to leave and then being unwelcome in the UK, the racism in the UK towards Black and Irish communities and the inequality that still exists in schools today.
Whilst children should have an understanding of apartied, they need to be taught about issues closer to home so they can see and understand the relevance in their own schools and communities.

We have many role models in the UK, I think more needs to be done to modernise the agenda.

Cam2020 · 30/10/2021 08:23

We covered the slave trade at senior school but not not apartheid. However, I was a primary aged child in the 80s, so the pressure mounting on De Klerk was a current topic on the news and a hot topic in my house. It was probably too recent history to be covered at that time.

bluetongue · 30/10/2021 08:24

I knew about it as a young person and teen but remember actually being taught it at school. In my case it was because I was a general nerd and bookworm so just knew lots about random topics.

Remember it’s not recent history like it was for some of use when we went to school

bluetongue · 30/10/2021 08:25

Sorry, that should be DON’T remember being taught it at school.

mustlovegin · 30/10/2021 08:52

Actually, I'm intrigued as to where you think 'my land' actually is

Otherpeoples you have been dealt a very difficult hand in life in this regard, as I'm sure you know. Is there an answer to your question? There probably isn't. You say yourself that you are making an 'effort' to make Britain your home. Most people (all over the world, not just Britain) have the luxury of not having to make an effort to feel patriotic or have this attachment to the land or to their fellow people, they just do. I would go so far as to say it's instinctive. There are many feelings which due to my circumstances I will not be able to truly comprehend. I have started to come to terms with that and be content to try and understand them conceptually, but I would never deny that the majority of people experience them.

The life we have lived influences our perception and ideas. That's why perhaps you tend to think as an outsider (I'm not saying you are) and place so much emphasis on what 'the international community' believe rather than trying to understand how many British feel.

Apartheid and many other world events have shaped your family history (and your own), but that doesn't necessarily mean it should take precedence over many other historical events in the UK curriculum

SolasAnla · 30/10/2021 08:55

Mollymoostoo

There is a lot of work going on at the moment around de-colonizing the curriculum as the history taught is very white.

The unintentional irony on the evolution of the modern British Empire always makes me giggle.

UnsuitableHat · 30/10/2021 09:03

When I started teaching in 2002 I was surprised to find 16 year olds who didn’t know what apartheid was, and it had happened in their lifetimes.

mustlovegin · 30/10/2021 09:09

But the UK is a weak nation no matter how you skin this particular cat, and the only way to increase its influence is to build alliances with like-minded nations, through shared sovereignty or at the very least through shared interests - be that a common enemy or a common goal

There's no such thing as 'shared' sovereignty. You either have it or you don't. You can indeed have a common goal and build alliances and we are setting out on that journey. What we need is our leaders to think and behave like statesmen, rather than politicians. But we will not achieve this by asking our children to focus on the 'failures rather than the victories' as a PP has said

I don't agree with the view that the UK is a 'weak nation'. I know it's been done to death, but I don't think many could say that we were weak at the peak of the Covid crisis when we were one of the few to develop a effective vaccine in record time. We just need to run with that spirit and apply the same mentality in other areas. It can and will be done

mustlovegin · 30/10/2021 09:18

the history taught is very white

Mollymoostoo what do you mean by this? Do you mean that it's very 'white' because the majority of the population in Britain is white? It's hardly surprising then.

I'm afraid to say that your whole post illustrates why some people should never be allowed to hold a teaching position in this country as they cannot grasp what objectivity or impartiality means.

reluctantbrit · 30/10/2021 10:57

@mustlovegin

I personally don't think it is necessary to feel proud of a country or call yourself a patriot (be it the country of your birth or one you live in for years) and only see what is deemed good and sucessful and ignore the faults and negatives a country has or did in the past.

I live in the UK now for over 20 years. Until 2019 I only had German citizenship.

I neither feel proud to be German nor will I think that I need to be proud of Britain as I also have a British passport now. The idea of feeling connected to a country just because I have citizenship or lived here for so long feels odd to me. I have friends who are English as they come and never lived anywhere else, friends who moved from other countries to the UK, friends who moved abroad as children or adults and returned. They (and I) deem "home" as a place they are settled, enjoy life and have a family and friends. Lots of them adopted British traditons because they enjoy them not because we feel we can't live here unless we eat a roast each Sunday (btw, during my childhood in Germany a roast was a regular occurance on Sundays).

"British values" are hardly so iconic that other countries don't have them. When I did my "Life in the UK" test for the citizenship application I more then once shook my head about topics the Brits deem so important and unique to Britian when it is something you seen in other countries as well and often is just common sense, at least for lots of Western Europeans. I do know from Germany as well, that people from countries and cultures outside the so-called Western World keep to themselves and not mingle with the rest but you also have this for people being born and bred here not just the ones moving newly to a country.

By all means, be in your patriotic bubble and enjoy the success Britain had over the centuries and I doubt not a lot of people won't acknowledge inventions made by Brunel, Stevenson and other great people. But you wear blinders if you can't see that Britain has many faults and encouraged behaviours over the centuries which aren't that favourable.

WhiskyXray · 30/10/2021 11:08

@Otherpeoplesteens your post resonated with me.

mustlovegin · 30/10/2021 11:19

only see what is deemed good and successful

reluctantbrit your username speaks volumes Grin

Nobody wants to ignore mistakes, but why would you want to emphasise them and hammer them down children's and people's throats at a time when our focus should be 100% on much more pressing issues? We have people with a mentality like Molly's in teaching positions FFS and you think it's advisable to add more fuel to the fire! I can't believe I'm having to repeat myself so much on this thread.

The idea of feeling connected to a country just because I have citizenship or lived here for so long feels odd to me

Settling somewhere and making friends does not automatically make one feel attachment. I would guess your feel a lot closer to Germany deep inside. That feeling might never go away and that's fine. It is what it is. You may just have to own it and be aware of your bias when communicating your views and how they may come across to the majority of people who perhaps don't share them

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