To be shocked that 16 year old didn't know about apartheid

[biddlybop]

Recently, I was having a conversation with a teen in the family and mentioned apartheid (think we were talking about films and books based on true events). They asked what apartheid was. I explained, and they had never heard of it.

I was genuinely shocked. We were taught about it in school - in both history, and English. I'm 30, so I wasn't educated decades ago.

Is this not in the curriculum anymore, or is it just her school? I think it's really important that young people are taught about these events, especially as racism is still such a problem.

@mustlovegin

So, you would like future generations to remain ignorant of the truth?

There's no need for the drama. The information is widely available and anyone can google it (specially16 year olds). The family can encourage it if they are interested (as the OP has done). But we shouldn't be financing the dissemination of anti-British propaganda in schools

And what's 'the truth'? Which news outlet tells 'the truth'? Who monopolises 'the truth'? 'The truth' will depend on what the teacher may want to focus on, what 'side' will be presented in a more favourable light, which nuances will be discussed, etc. And I'm not talking about apartheid here, but more about history in general.

The only one being melodramatic here is you, mustlovegin.

Anti-British propaganda? Yesterday I pointed out that levels of literacy and numeracy were poor in the UK and you said it was untrue and offensive. It is not 'anti-British propaganda' - it is fact. Here you go (the information is widely available and anyone can google it):

www.nationalnumeracy.org.uk/what-numeracy/what-issue

www.teacherboards.co.uk/community/adult-illiteracy-in-the-uk/

It should be widely understood that to fix something, you have to be aware that it's a problem. If you really think 49% of adults having the numeracy of a primary school leaver is acceptable, or that it is acceptable for 16% of adults to be functionally illiterate then it's obviously not a problem for you, but let me assure you it is for most people who care, or for people who think everyone should have better pay, or a multitude of others. Denying something appalling exists because to do so in your mind denigrates Britain, or the British education system, is actually part of the problem. That's you.

As for the wider point about anti-British propaganda, again let me tell you that one of the almost universal perceptions of the UK from outside the country is that we have never, really, come to terms with losing the Empire. Understanding all facets of this, how it influences the whole world today, and the legacy still being addressed in the Commonwealth and beyond is an important part of understanding that, and therefore understanding Britain's place in the world today.

Again, I know you'd rather not reference it but Brexit is instructive. When the Brexiters talk about 'Global Britain' they imagine UK as some great modern power. Most of the rest of the world laughs, they really do. When Gavin Williamson talks about sending Royal Navy aircraft carriers to the South China Sea to 'show China', the rest of the world laughs. When Boris signs an international treaty with a protocol on Northern Ireland with no intention of honouring it, the rest of the world looks on aghast. When Priti Patel threatens to starve the Republic of Ireland by preventing food shipments transiting Great Britain, the rest of the world looks on aghast. These are all current political and diplomatic decisions, based in the badly mistaken belief that the UK is still a world power because we're never come to terms with not being, and they cheapen us.

As for yesterday's line again about me "discrediting the British" but still "deciding to come and live here anyway" - seriously? You know absolutely nothing about my circumstances or my motivations, and yet still want to lecture us about 'the truth'? I have never felt the need to justify my circumstance on MN but I'll make an exception for you to help you down off your high horse. Here are my facts. My father arrived in Britain in 1939 on the Kindertransport. He was adopted by a couple in Yorkshire, and by the time he had finished his education word reached him of surviving members of his family in South Africa. He went to join them and ended up in Northern Rhodesia where, upon independence in October 1964, he was required to leave the place he called home. He and his fiancée (Portuguese, from Mozambique) went on to establish a life spread between Hong Kong and Macau, then British and Portuguese colonies respectively. I was born in the latter and did my early years education there, but my primary education in Hong Kong, in English, under the British system. I was sent to boarding school in the UK at age nine just after the agreement was reached to hand HK back to China; Macau would follow soon after. We knew enough about decolonisation that we didn't hang around to be required to leave, so started to build lives elsewhere. My parents retired to continental Portugal and I remained in Britain where I did all my secondary and tertiary education, and entered the workforce. I have been resident here for 36 years now, and like my parents before me was invited to leave the place I called home after the referendum because my passport had the wrong country on it. But by then I had already qualified for British citizenship, which I took up.

I have every right to be here, and I have every right to draw attention to things that aren't working well here, as well as talk about the inconveniences which have been heaped on my family by Britain's history. I have the advantage that I am not imprisoned by my lack of outside perspective, or by some Little Englander mentality. It is not 'anti-British' to do that. My only goal is to make things better for my children.

There are many truths, but all truth is based on facts. I really don't know why you are so afraid of them.

@mustlovegin

mustlovegin
‘There's no need for the drama. The information is widely available and anyone can google it (specially16 year olds). The family can encourage it if they are interested (as the OP has done). But we shouldn't be financing the dissemination of anti-British propaganda in schools

And what's 'the truth'? Which news outlet tells 'the truth'? Who monopolises 'the truth'? 'The truth' will depend on what the teacher may want to focus on, what 'side' will be presented in a more favourable light, which nuances will be discussed, etc. And I'm not talking about apartheid here, but more about history in general.’

I agree with another PP about it’s only you that’s coming across as being melodramatic.

It’s not drama, history is facts.

‘But we shouldn't be financing the dissemination of anti-British propaganda in schools’
So you only want people to know about the good stuff?
You want to whitewash the rest of it so the great British people do not look bad!

You and people like you are the problem. Always have been and will continue to be with that ignorant mindset. It’s fear. Let’s get down to the nitty gritty of this. Please tell us in your own words, exactly what you are afraid of???

Fascinating family history @Otherpeoplesteens. Thank you. There would seem to be room for a big book on the winding down of the British Empire after 1947. Fragments of the story are told all over the place, but I've not come across one that takes the subject as a whole topic. Or have I just missed it?

Otherpeoples I've never said you have no right to be here, and I can appreciate that your family's history must have been very hard and complex. But you need to understand that if you blatantly say on a UK forum that most British are proud to be numerically illiterate you are likely to cause offence. Nobody is immune to that.

As for the wider point about anti-British propaganda, again let me tell you that one of the almost universal perceptions of the UK from outside the country is that we have never, really, come to terms with losing the Empire....understanding that, and therefore understanding Britain's place in the world today

That's the equivalent of asking Britain to 'know our place', and it's unacceptable. Why should our self worth or our decision on how to educate our children be based on 'a universal' outside view? Whose view is it anyway? Can't you see how contradictory and unreasonable that is?

history is facts

Not necessarily, I think I've been clear in my post

Please tell us in your own words, exactly what you are afraid of???

Why is it than when someone disagrees it always has to be down to fear?

I’m not actually that surprised for a sixteen year old. If not taught at school it’s the sort of thing that would perhaps come up through watching a film or similar.

Would you expect a 16 to know about say, the Rwandan genocide, Chernobyl, or even the Falklands war. For anyone in their 30’s it’s fairly “new past” but for a 16 year old, even their parents would have been children when they happened.

@mustlovegin

Facts are the ‘real’ and ‘complete’ history.
You’re basically saying you don’t want others to know the real truth and are happy to continue to stick your fingers in your ears. Most probably because hiding the bad history does not have a direct negative impact on you and how you are perceived in by others in society, i.e., racism, your mother tongue and/ or the colour of your skin.

‘Why is it than when someone disagrees it always has to be down to fear?’

Because it usually is. What are you scared of them? What’s ‘your’ problem?

That's the equivalent of asking Britain to 'know our place', and it's unacceptable. Why should our self worth or our decision on how to educate our children be based on 'a universal' outside view?

Well, for starters, because self-awareness on how others perceive us is usually a fairly important influence on our own behaviour in our personal lives - although I'm beginning to wonder with you - and it would be fairly logical to carry this through to a nation-state level when acting in a regional or global environment. If you are fed back at work that all your staff think you are impulsive, or dishonest, or inconsistent, if you had any sense you'd address that.

Apart from recklessness, the only reason you wouldn't do that as a country would be if you were so powerful it didn't matter, or so weak it didn't matter. And for that you'd need an honest understanding of your place in the world. And that is not "unacceptable" - it's just how international politics works whether you like it or not. It influences so many things.

Again, in the Brexit debate almost everyone outside the UK believes that the UK's position is weak, and that it strengthened the UK's hand to surrender some sovereignty in return for a say in the direction of a much larger, more powerful, entity.

China now knows that it can put tanks on the streets of Hong Kong in direct violation of the 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration, because not only are they economically and militarily far, far superior to us, but also because the UK has made it clear that it does not regard international treaties as binding. If Boris can rip up the Northern Ireland protocol on the basis he never intended to honour it, why wouldn't Beijing throw that back in our faces? The UK made itself much weaker than it had to be.

The UK wants to lead the global fight against climate change through COP26. And yet on Wednesday the duty on domestic flights was cut in the budget. The rest of the world sees UK making a point of not walking the talk, so why should they? UK leadership fatally undermined before the conference starts.

Britain needs to know its place in the world if it wants any influence at all in it, and it needs to understand how people perceive it if it wants to further its own agenda.

@mustlovegin

I studied British colonialism in India as part of my history A-level in Germany. If you would see the bookshelves in my house you would find tons of books related to British history (among other countries). History is more than facts about which king ruled when or that Britain won a war.

History has facts - there is no doubt that the Battle of Bosworth was in 1485. You can argue (and lots of historians have) that Henry VII shouldn't have automatically been crowned King of England based on a dubious blood link to the throne. So are tons of other historical events, always open to interpretation and the view is changing depending on the time a study/book/documentary is done.

When DD was in Y7 I asked her history teacher what will be covered in KS3. She mentioned imperialism and also said very confidently that she will be very critical on that subject as there is nothing worse than repeating the same old slogans prior to WWII when the world and views on subjects have changed so much.

Otherwise the Germans would still think they are a military strong empire with a Kaiser declared in Versaille after winning a battle over the French.

There is no point in just teaching the glorious side of things, that's so one-sided, you can forget about giving children a well rounded education.

I’m in my 40s and was never taught about it at school. I was aware of it as a child / teen via my parents and the news but never through school.
Same with many issues and historic events.
People are gobsmacked that I was never taught about WW1 or WW2 at school but I didn’t - everything I know is through learning from parents, self-taught or museums and documentaries etc.

LOL. I’m an English teacher and have taught international school students (so…in the top 1% of privilege) aged 17-18 who didn’t know what it was…

I knew what it was just not that working Im 40 not sure if I was taught about it.

I know what apartheid is. I'm 42. I can recall the free nelson Mandela concert being on tv. Ive seen the film the power of one. I know about trade sanctions and sun city but mostly I know about it because 1. It was in the media when I was a child and 2. My dad was relentless about these kinds of issues.
I don't recall it coming up much at school and I went to state and independent schools.

I live in Scotland and it wasn’t until I was in my mid 20’s that I realised I knew nothing about my own history. Almost nothing in the curriculum, all focussed on the world wars and the empire and the closest we came to Scottish historical events was learning about the monarchy. I’m genuinely ashamed of my education whilst remaining proud of my homeland.

I've just asked my 12YO DD and she didn't have a clue

Saying that -as soon as I explained it to her she knew exactly what I meant but just hadn't recognised the word.

Mid 30s here and never learnt about it at school. Hadn't heard about it until my mid twenties when I had to ask my DH about it as I'd heard the term but didn't know anything about it. Dh is only 3 years older but from a different area and learnt about it at his school. We did ww1, ww2, American slavery, prohibition, Russian revolution, peasants revolt, magna carta etc etc e

@cricketmum84

I've just asked my 12YO DD and she didn't have a clue

My dd is 12 I highly doubt she knows about it and she's at a grammar and is v widely read.

YANBU - Mine are 9 and 16 year old , they know a lot about apartheid and racism, various forms of discrimination intentional and unintentional.

Nelson Mandela died 8 years ago.

Many under 10s aren’t very aware of current affairs, and there is nothing particularly wrong with that.

It would be odd for a 16 year old to unaware of issues around racism now, but they might not relate that particularly to South Africa. It’s not as though there aren’t loads of other examples.

It's just occurred to me both my dds who are 8 and 12 know a lot about segregation, race riots and civil rights movement in USA due to of all things - working on hairspray the musical. Apartheid wouldn't exactly surprise them.

I knew someone a few years ago, 19y/old then, she’d be 25 now, who didn’t know about the Holocaust. I’m in my late 50s and apartheid was never mentioned in school even though it was very much in the news at the time. Later on we gaily danced to Free Nelson Mandela; I always assumed everyone knew who he was but maybe not.

@Charles11

My Dc have been taught about apartheid. They’re 16 and under. I remember ds1 was very confused and appalled by it when he learnt about it in primary school and said ‘there was a party and black people weren’t allowed to sit next to white people!’ I got to the bottom of his confusion, figured out what he was learning and then helped him to understand what was going on.

OMG. Not a funny subject at all, but this post did make me smile

What are you scared of?

What do you think I should be scared of? Because whatever it is, you should be scared too

History has facts - there is no doubt that the Battle of Bosworth was in 1485

reluctantbrit you must know full well that in the current climate a history lesson is not going to be limited to dates