Architects error

[Greenleaves20]

We’re in the middle of a kitchen diner extension to our house. We’ve discovered that the kitchen part is 20cm smaller than the architects drawings. This means our kitchen and island have to be reduced in size and also means the back wall is uneven. There is a post dividing the two sections so it probably won’t be too noticeable but it’s frustrating as we’d have gone out further into the garden if we’d known this. The shell of the building is finished and the roof is on. The project is costing well over £100K (utility and downstairs loo and hall all being done too). The architect has emailed to say it was an error due to an assumption they made but hasn’t really apologised. Having looked online etc I think I’m some ways we would like some compensation for this error, especially as we’ve paid over £10K in architects fees and their survey and it’s meaning we have to change our designs and end up with a smaller space. So should we (and anyone who knows are we able to) ask for some money back for this error?

YABU - it’s a mistake, just leave it and enjoy your extension

YANBU - ask for some money back

@minipie

By the way I would be focusing on asking them to bear the costs of fixing the error. (As a pp said they should have insurance to cover). Not asking for a fee reduction. A fee reduction will be tiny in comparison with the costs of fixing the error.

Excellent point.

Draw us another picture of how it should be / what you were expecting.

Do you still have adequate room around the island?

Instead of an island, why don't you attach it to that wall to hide the post?

@kirinm

It's not about the builder having done what he's been asked to do. It's about the contractual responsibility for design. Certain contracts pass all design responsibilities to the main contractor regardless of whether they had any input into the design.

As someone working in the construction industry, I have never encountered a contract which passes all design responsibilities to a builder. Nor would I ever sign one.

The builder is not at fault here. The architect is.

Speak to the architect and ask them to compensate for any changes which need to be made, OP.

[quote WizardOfAus]@kirinm

It's not about the builder having done what he's been asked to do. It's about the contractual responsibility for design. Certain contracts pass all design responsibilities to the main contractor regardless of whether they had any input into the design.

As someone working in the construction industry, I have never encountered a contract which passes all design responsibilities to a builder. Nor would I ever sign one.

The builder is not at fault here. The architect is.

Speak to the architect and ask them to compensate for any changes which need to be made, OP.[/quote]
As a solicitor who deals with disputes in the construction industry, I have. JCT Design and Build contracts are not named that for no reason.

I'm not suggesting the builder has done anything wrong at all. What I am saying is that subject to the wording of any contract agreed, the architect may well say the builder has taken on design responsibilities.

It's pretty straightforward to find out.

Ohh tricky. I absolutely see the issue from your drawing OP.

What ought to be done is to recess that post 20cm into the wall it’s on. However to do this means taking out the steel in the ceiling and swapping for a longer one. This is pretty major work especially with the roof on now. It can still be done however and tbh that is what I would push for as a first ask.

The wall that the post is against, it is a party wall shared with neighbours l, or not?

Not having enough space for ease of movement around the island will be a long term annoyance, especially as your family grows up.

Will people be able to pass comfortably or will someone standing at that much narrowed width, actually block entry into the kitchen?

Yes I was going to ask that. What’s the gap between island and pillar, if island stays the same size? And is there a garden door somewhere on that wall? If it’s a squeeze to get past the island and especially to get to the garden that will drive you mad.

I agree, the post / pillar will become a major irritant. I'd definitely try and get it rectified. Maybe try and establish the cost from your builder so you can approach the architect with a figure in mind. I wouldn't look for a reduction of fees.

confused BoredZelda our kitchen had to be designed and ordered long before there was a finished shell to measure. So it had to be done off the architects plans. Architect was fully aware of this and expected it. Yes there was a site survey right at the end before fitting to check the built dimensions matched the plans but by then it would have been too late to make any major changes to the kitchen design.

An entirely difference scenario to fitting a kitchen in an existing space, and far less risky. But even with that, sounds like there was a fuck up with programming because having worked on hundreds of construction projects over 30 years, no contractor would order a finalised kitchen off an architect’s plan. Any change that came from that error would be yours, not the architect’s.

Possibly an email to solicitor, with builder cc'd in.
🙄 Don’t do this unless you want to look like a complete tool.

As someone working in the construction industry, I have never encountered a contract which passes all design responsibilities to a builder. Nor would I ever sign one.

Are you sure you work in the Construction industry? Design and build projects are one of the most common types of contracts. I’m working on 5 of them at the moment. In fact, I can’t remember the last time I didn’t do a D&B.

Instead of an island, why don't you attach it to that wall to hide the post?

Seems like the simplest solution to me.

They aren't going to apologise as that would mean admitting they are at fault. But that is irrelevant as what you want is some money off.

If the layout is pretty much unchanged l would leave it. This isn't a massive loss or a significant change from your description.

The gap between the island and pillar was supposed to be 1100mm and it was 1200mm between the other end and surface there to match the space all the way around. We also have planned a dishwasher on the units opposite the post so need a bigger space there really.

Expected design attached below with some of the rest of the house (utility room and understairs cupboard for coats) included. That short corridor leads to the hallway and front door. So we will we bringing shopping etc in through that brown door into the kitchen. I’m not sure a peninsula style would work to disguise the post as it would be in the way of the main entry to the kitchen area and would mean walking all the way round to get/put away things .The green bits indicate sliding doors into the garden.

Pic attached now!

@DiscoGlitterBall

Is it actually an architect? If so they will be RIBA, should have professional insurance and if you so wished you can make a complaint via RIBA.

I’d expect them to come up with a solution first though

Architects don’t have to be registered with RIBA to practice. They do have to be registered with the ARB. You can search the ARB’s website to check to see if someone is an architect.

I’m not sure a peninsula style would work to disguise the post as it would be in the way of the main entry to the kitchen area and would mean walking all the way round to get/put away things

Doing so through a too tight space will be equally annoying.

We asked for a meeting to discuss options with the architect and have one tomorrow. In his reply he said that the options are a reduction in island length and back wall unit length we don’t have back wall units. He also said ‘Working with existing buildings often brings about these situations, and its why no kitchen order should be placed without taking site dimensions’. We haven’t ordered a kitchen though so that’s not really the problem. I’m sort of getting the impression he doesn’t think it’s an issue and isn’t concerned so tomorrow should be interesting as we really do think it’s an issue!

Agree with @Appleseesaw RIBA is a voluntary organisation, but for some reason people think it’s the gold standard. However, all architectural firms should have professional indemnity insurance cover.

For those who say it doesn’t really matter well, it does. You sought and paid handsomely for professional advice -it’s not as if you’d drawn plans out out on the back of an envelope for a builder to interpret.

Having said that, these disputes are hideous and expensive, especially if your household insurance doesn’t cover it. (Btw did you let your insurer know about the building work? If not, your insurance may be invalid.)

Ultimately you’ll need to look at solutions (unless you or your insurers have very deep pockets), which isn’t right, or fair, but otherwise you’ll never be able to move on. This is especially important if you borrowed money to do this work, as you have to continue to repay the loan whether or not you’re happy and, I assume, there won’t be spare cash for a legal fight.

Unless you're attaching the island to that wall, I personally wouldn't have an island I had to squeeze around. It is just dead space.

So OP, am I reading correctly thst the width will go from 1200, or 1100 down to 900 or 1000mm?...around the island?

If so I think that is very tight and will bug you.

I have one side of mine with a width of 1,000 and it's tight and bloody annoying.

Less than 1,500 is tight.

Two people cannot stand back to back on that width, well they could, but they won't, because it's tight.

I didn't notice it so much until we spend lockdown and I had endless snacking going on 18 hours a day, often all at the one time.

What do you think a qualified professional is? The OP is paying for them to get it right and it's not for her to review the drawings

Have you never heard of a qualified professional make a fuck up? It happens all around the country all the time.

I would be checking the final drawings on any project.

I think looking at solutions is probably the first step from what people have said. If none are possible I think we may be taking further steps.

@billy1966, yeah it’ll have to go down to 1000mm on one side and 1100 on the dishwasher side, or reduce the island size is the other option. Useful to know what works and what doesn’t as it’s hard to visualise it. Very disappointing as we wanted a big island and it’s one of the reasons we chose the kitchen size we did.

Well without a doubt if you have to, resize the island.

Because the pleasure of it will be immeasurably diminished by constantly having to squeeze by.

It will go from being a useful work space to being something that feels in the way and its usefulness will also be diminished if two people can't stand back to back, or pass by each other comfortably.

I don't even know if 1500 is still a bit narrow for that.

A very useful tip is to lay out your kitchen with old newspapers to the exact measurements of the kitchen, with work tops and islands clearly laid out.

As a visual tool it is powerful.

Would it be possible for you to swap the L shape to the other wall? So you have units along the pillar wall and behind the island ? That way the pillar is encompassed within kitchen units (fitter will need to cut into units to fit round it and obvs restricts what you can have there). You lose some wall cabinet but don’t have to shrink the island.

Doesn’t work if the plumbing is all in place and can’t be moved though.