Architects error

[Greenleaves20]

We’re in the middle of a kitchen diner extension to our house. We’ve discovered that the kitchen part is 20cm smaller than the architects drawings. This means our kitchen and island have to be reduced in size and also means the back wall is uneven. There is a post dividing the two sections so it probably won’t be too noticeable but it’s frustrating as we’d have gone out further into the garden if we’d known this. The shell of the building is finished and the roof is on. The project is costing well over £100K (utility and downstairs loo and hall all being done too). The architect has emailed to say it was an error due to an assumption they made but hasn’t really apologised. Having looked online etc I think I’m some ways we would like some compensation for this error, especially as we’ve paid over £10K in architects fees and their survey and it’s meaning we have to change our designs and end up with a smaller space. So should we (and anyone who knows are we able to) ask for some money back for this error?

YABU - it’s a mistake, just leave it and enjoy your extension

YANBU - ask for some money back

WoolyMammoth55 has good advice. I think I said this on your other thread but think about what you want the outcome to be ideally, and what you’d be prepared to settle for. Make lots of notes and come up with some bullet points to email the architect, so:

Question how and why it happened
Detail how many sq m of space you’ve lost and what the impact of this is, eg squeezing round chairs, losing a unit, smaller island, giant post
What compensation you expect (monetary - he’s failed to properly project manage, and did a bad design? Base it on a % of the fee or lost sq m or something that compensates for the specific problem, not a random “feel better” amount)
What practical solutions you want (him finding a way for you not to have the giant post, anything else?)

and go from there. Stay calm and reasonable even if you’re spitting feathers.

20cm isn't a large amount if you were talking about a room being 20cm shorter or longer than you'd hoped for X reason.

20cm is a large amount if you're talking about architects measurements which if they're wrong, impact on the design in multiple ways (ie because multiple other elements have to change size to fit)

Architects measure in mm not cm because their measurements and drawings are meant to be accurate, with very small margins of error. That's one of the reasons you're paying for an architect (as opposed to say, a builder project manager) I'd definitely raise it with them and think ahead about what outcome you'd be happier with.

Can you calculate what your loss is? Because you could really only claim for whatever quantifiable loss they've caused you. That's a genuine question rather than me suggesting you're somehow out of order for being pissed off with your architect.

I find it so odd that people shrug this sort of stuff off as 'building works'. If a professional has made a negligent Jody she that has caused you financial loss then absolutely you skipped pursue it.

I'm not sure you'll get a reduction on fees unless you make a compliant and a bit of noise.

That should be 'negligent error that'

20cm is a lot. I don't have much to add to the conversation, only that I'm a bit at people saying it's no big deal!

Ah, well, I stand corrected. I still can't see that it's a lot, but posters who've actually had work done seem to think it is, so I'll accept that. Hope you can resolve it to your satisfaction.

I thought the other thread said it was 14cm. Did you confirm whether your measurements were external or internal?

But as I understand it the reality is you haven’t lost any space. Your extension goes out to where it always would have, its just that part of your back wall wasn’t in line with the rest and so your space is slightly smaller there?

Our architect got the back of our extension wrong by 3 feet! It was only once the digger started that I realised. we had to stop the whole project and go to planning again. They paid the additional fees but we didn’t get any compensation

I can't believe these replies either. It's not even the £10k spent on the architect that's the problem. They've made a massive mistake. You might get a refund. £2k max. But what that doesn't in any way compensate for is the damage done to your £100k extension. Your dreams.

Your kitchen units. Which IS the most important part of this extension. Dreaming about and installing the very kitchen unit that you wanted and using it for years to come and being happy with it, in a room that's the right size - what you expected, what you ordered, what you asked for. How can you compensate for that?
Get £2k back. Meaningless. major damage has been done here.

Architect and builder sound negligent. I don't know if they are actually in legal terms! but it feels like you've had a really rough ride here and no amount of money is going to compensate.

20cm is f**king huge. It's nearly a ruler. Losing a small cabinet at the end of your kitchen. This is absolutely a massive issue.

You ask how we got them to rectify their mistakes.

The rsj was too big so had to be redone to fit.

And the incorrect footings for the garage were so screamingly obvious they had no choice but to start again.

But didn't you get a copy of the final drawings? He might have drawn then but you could have checked the measurements.

10k is a huge sum to pay for incompetence. I would only be cutting the architect any slack if they are falling over themselves to put this right; change the design, change materials, pay the difference etc.

If they just can’t be arsed, I’d put your needs and rectifications across coolly and calmly and see what they come up with but would absolutely be planning to make a complaint.

If you have lost confidence in their project management, do they have a colleague who could take over? Or can they pay for another professional to do the job.

Different circumstances as we hadn't started the work yet, but our architect plans were incorrect also (based on the survey measurements from their surveyor). It meant it was rejected by building control. The architect was avoiding our calls and not being helpful. We ended up emailing the directors and they reviewed the case and gave us a refund on fees.

20 cm in a kitchen is a lot, and much bigger pillars are also. I'd definitely want a partial refund of fees

I can't get my head around the minimising either.

This is a big fxck up and really sloppy work.

Any compensation is meaningless in the context of a 100k job.

I would be very very upset, and they would definitely know it.

OP, I think you need to list out EXACTLY how their sloppiness has impacted the project and the end result.

I certainly wouldn't just leave it go.

Very annoying.

@Welshiefluff

But didn't you get a copy of the final drawings? He might have drawn then but you could have checked the measurements.

What do you think a qualified professional is? The OP is paying for them to get it right and it's not for her to review the drawings.

OP do you have a design and build contract with the contractors? If so, you might find the design responsibility now rests with them rather than the architect.

Thanks for all the replies. Loads of good points and ideas about how to approach it; keeping calm and having a list of questions ready and taking it from there. I think we’ve decided that the post being 50cm rather than 30cm is actually the biggest issue now as it will really affect the main walkway into the kitchen and divide the rooms in a much more noticeable way. I think I’ll be a bit fed up every time I see it which will be a lot! The other main issue is the size of the room not being as we expected and having to alter our designs for this. So we’ve asked for an online meeting with the architect to discuss this and the next steps. Our ideal outcome is to at least have the post at the intended size. We can’t face starting again to get the room there right size - we’re currently living miles away from home with the in-laws as we have a 5 month old baby and a toddler and the house is extremely dusty. I feel really disappointed more than anything now - we’d been planning, saving up for and looking forward to this extension for a long time and it’s just not going to be as we wanted or expected it to be.

With regard to the measurements etc and is checking them I wouldn’t have expected to have to do this - the architects survey is a professional service and accuracy is what we’ve paid them for. I think we probably will ask for at least some of the fees back as I they’ve not done a good job. I accept that of course everyone makes mistakes and this is part of what their insurance is for I guess!

The builder isn’t at fault here - we have a 3 way contract with him, us and the architect and he has followed these (incorrect) plans to the letter as far as we can see.

Well. I'd definitely put it in writing. Possibly an email to solicitor, with builder cc'd in.
For traceability, so nothing that's 'said' could later be disputed.
List everything. Say you are not happy and this has to be resolved.

Do it today. Even if the email isn't perfect, Your'll have started, And the weight lifted off your shoulders will be very pleasurable I can assure you.

@Greenleaves20

Thanks for all the replies. Loads of good points and ideas about how to approach it; keeping calm and having a list of questions ready and taking it from there. I think we’ve decided that the post being 50cm rather than 30cm is actually the biggest issue now as it will really affect the main walkway into the kitchen and divide the rooms in a much more noticeable way. I think I’ll be a bit fed up every time I see it which will be a lot! The other main issue is the size of the room not being as we expected and having to alter our designs for this. So we’ve asked for an online meeting with the architect to discuss this and the next steps. Our ideal outcome is to at least have the post at the intended size. We can’t face starting again to get the room there right size - we’re currently living miles away from home with the in-laws as we have a 5 month old baby and a toddler and the house is extremely dusty. I feel really disappointed more than anything now - we’d been planning, saving up for and looking forward to this extension for a long time and it’s just not going to be as we wanted or expected it to be.

With regard to the measurements etc and is checking them I wouldn’t have expected to have to do this - the architects survey is a professional service and accuracy is what we’ve paid them for. I think we probably will ask for at least some of the fees back as I they’ve not done a good job. I accept that of course everyone makes mistakes and this is part of what their insurance is for I guess!

The builder isn’t at fault here - we have a 3 way contract with him, us and the architect and he has followed these (incorrect) plans to the letter as far as we can see.

It's not about the builder having done what he's been asked to do. It's about the contractual responsibility for design. Certain contracts pass all design responsibilities to the main contractor regardless of whether they had any input into the design.

We had exactly the same thing happen to us. The architect completely mis- measured the size of current building and this meant our extension needed to be larger than what the builders had quoted for.
We didn't pursue any compensation but I still feel annoyed about it. Surely one of the key aspects of an architects role is being precise with measurements.

OP,

Years ago we were having work done, including a new shower fitted, and the shower itself was put in the wrong spot and it was a hassle to redo it.

I didn't care and refused to be made feel bad.
The shower was put in an easier spot for them BUT it would bug the hell out of me every day.

Do NOT underestimate how much that post is going to bug YOU.

You need to really reflect on that annoyance.

100k spent and you will bugged EVERY day.

I would not be letting this go.

IMO this is a really HUGE fxxk up, and I would be making it crystal clear that it is up to the architects to fix THEIR mess, but you are not accepting this.

Sending off an email is a good idea, but do not let this go.

Be brave now, because you will bitterly regret not standing your ground and having to live with it.

Be prepared for them to minimise and just want this to go away.

Their lack of apology is outrageous in the circumstances.

Can you draw a diagram OP? (Or post the architects plans, lol). Is the post at the centre of the room or at the side?

I’m trying to understand how two walls not being in line affects the size of the post. As depending on the answer there may be different solutions possible.

By the way I would be focusing on asking them to bear the costs of fixing the error. (As a pp said they should have insurance to cover). Not asking for a fee reduction. A fee reduction will be tiny in comparison with the costs of fixing the error.

@minipie here’s a very rough and totally off scale drawing. Basically because the back wall (in purple) isn’t in the position we thought it pushes the 30cm post (yellow) forward by 20cm, meaning that the length of the wall in blue plus the post is 50cm now.

Posted pic twice in error, sorry!