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Cleaners increase in hourly rate

515 replies

user1478790138 · 16/10/2021 00:14

Hello

First thread here so pls be gentle.

We have a largeish house in the Nottinghamshire, 6 BR, 4 BA and a fairly large ground floor, 2 children and dogs. Have had a pair of cleaners who come twice a week (initially three times but then it was to hectic for us) for several months now and paid £12ph, they want to increase it to 13.5 now. They do the cleaning and tidying, of which there is a fair amount but I don’t limit them time wise. Not sure now how to react, we’ve had them since March, somehow an increase of 100+ quid a month seems a bit steep in such a short period of time? What would you do??
Thank you

OP posts:
SW1amp · 16/10/2021 15:50

I have a massive clue, @Dobbyafreeelf

It’s what I do for a job, and I’m very aware of the various ‘levers’ that need to be pulled to recruit and retain staff at all pay levels, from minimum wage to £500k+ a year

One of those is pay, and as you say, another is respect/conditions

But you’re mixing up the inherent value of certain workers to the country with the price they can demand for their labour. They are linked but different things

icedcoffees · 16/10/2021 15:51

However I think my housekeeper is key the running my house, not because she has superior hoovering skills but because she will spot when the dishwasher salt is running low, or when the dog bowls need washing, and knows which wardrobe which of my clothes go in or a hundred other things. For that, I pay a premium because I can’t face the hassle of losing her and having to show someone else the ropes

But that doesn’t mean she is ‘skilled’, just that she has learned how to keep me happy enough to pay her a lot more so she doesn’t leave

But those things ARE skills.

They may not be skills that you learn at university, but they are still skills, which is why you're happy to pay her more money than someone who can't (or won't) do those things.

The fact that she does those things means:

  • she's observant
  • she has a good memory
  • she's good with time management
  • she's learned her job so well that it would be an inconvenience to you to replace her.

Those are all good, marketable skills to have, and they are also not skills you can teach everyone, which, again, is why you're happy to (in your own words) pay a premium for what she does.

Dobbyafreeelf · 16/10/2021 15:52

@SW1amp

I'm a carer with over a decades experience. You have no clue if you think you can just pluck people from the job centre and have them given even satisfactory basic level care.

After 12 years in the profession I'm not low skilled thanks. I have done heaps of training both formal and on the job training.
If you think we are low skilled then perhaps you could walk a few days in mine and others who have made caring our lives work.

We are skilled in so many ways beyond wiping people's backsides and helping them dress.
We know how to comfort Mrs Jones who has forgotten again that her husband has died and he therefore won't be coming to visit today.
We know how to negotiate and distract Mr Smith who has dementia and wants to go for a walk at 2am and is shouting because we can't allow him too.
We recognise James who is autistic is about to have a meltdown because he can't cope with th noise another resident is making and learn how to diffuse the situation.
We know how how to negotiate all the bureaucracy and help clients and their families navigate all the forms and hoop jumping to get them the help and support they need.
We become educators teaching those with learning disabilities skills they need to become more independent.
We become skilled in every make model of mobile phones/tablets/ assistive technology so that we can help and support our clients in keeping in touch with their loved ones.
We recognise the slightest change in your relatives that could indicate that something is wrong.
We dispense medication and controlled drugs - sometimes to over 30 clients at a time.
We are their advocates making sure that people get what they need to thrives.
And all that is just to name a few.

You know what we're not low skilled. We might not have letters to our names but We are skilled in all the things that the rest of society don't want to do. And we're paid a pittance for it. For a brief moment last year I thought that perhaps society was waking up to what we do. But no. You stood their on your doorsteps clapping but it means nothing.
So please in future give us a fraction of respect and stop calling us low skilled!!

icedcoffees · 16/10/2021 15:57

You know what we're not low skilled. We might not have letters to our names but We are skilled in all the things that the rest of society don't want to do. And we're paid a pittance for it. For a brief moment last year I thought that perhaps society was waking up to what we do. But no. You stood their on your doorsteps clapping but it means nothing.

This is really beautifully said @Dobbyafreeelf. Flowers

Snog · 16/10/2021 16:01

Wages for the lower paid are on the up and this is surely a good thing.

Either pay the new rate or cut back on the hours, I think it's as simple as that.

If you can find another company that will clean for less you could always change but frankly I think £13.50 is still pretty cheap for a good cleaner.

SW1amp · 16/10/2021 16:03

@Dobbyafreeelf

My mum ran a care agency for decades, I’m very well aware of the value of carers and how much support and comfort they bring to families
I’ve also worked in the sector myself, I really do have a clue

But, everything you’ve described is something that can be done by a lot of people given a bit of time and on the job training. It doesn’t require many rare attributes or skills.
Which is why pay has typically been quite low in the sector
And it’s a job that has attracted women who didn’t have many other options so had to take what was on offer rather than being able to be too picky about who they worked for

Im not saying it’s right but it’s how and why the sector has ended up with the pay rates it’s got

Obviously what we are seeing at the moment is a reduction in the number of people available to do a lot of these roles and therefore pay and conditions may well go up
Bosses won’t be so quick to turn down all requests for flexibility if they know they will lose someone they can’t replace

I’m part of a leadership team at work where we meet regularly to look at our staffing

One of the things we do is rank all of our direct reports according to 1) how difficult they would be to replace and how much of a problem that would leave us in as a business and 2) how likely they are to leave

Those who are in the ‘hard to replace, likely to leave’ quadrant are given extra pay rises etc
Those in the ‘easy to replace’ and ‘unlikely to leave’ quadrant aren’t given massive pay rises

Now imagine we ranked entire careers like that… you can see how some get paid more than others

Dobbyafreeelf · 16/10/2021 16:07

[quote SW1amp]@Dobbyafreeelf

My mum ran a care agency for decades, I’m very well aware of the value of carers and how much support and comfort they bring to families
I’ve also worked in the sector myself, I really do have a clue

But, everything you’ve described is something that can be done by a lot of people given a bit of time and on the job training. It doesn’t require many rare attributes or skills.
Which is why pay has typically been quite low in the sector
And it’s a job that has attracted women who didn’t have many other options so had to take what was on offer rather than being able to be too picky about who they worked for

Im not saying it’s right but it’s how and why the sector has ended up with the pay rates it’s got

Obviously what we are seeing at the moment is a reduction in the number of people available to do a lot of these roles and therefore pay and conditions may well go up
Bosses won’t be so quick to turn down all requests for flexibility if they know they will lose someone they can’t replace

I’m part of a leadership team at work where we meet regularly to look at our staffing

One of the things we do is rank all of our direct reports according to 1) how difficult they would be to replace and how much of a problem that would leave us in as a business and 2) how likely they are to leave

Those who are in the ‘hard to replace, likely to leave’ quadrant are given extra pay rises etc
Those in the ‘easy to replace’ and ‘unlikely to leave’ quadrant aren’t given massive pay rises

Now imagine we ranked entire careers like that… you can see how some get paid more than others[/quote]
😂😂😂😂 you are deluded if you believe anyone could do it!!! The reason the sector is falling apart is precisely because they can't! You really don't have a clue!!!

icedcoffees · 16/10/2021 16:17

But, everything you’ve described is something that can be done by a lot of people given a bit of time and on the job training. It doesn’t require many rare attributes or skills.

Doesn't the fact that the care sector has SUCH a high turnover of staff tell you that this isn't the case?

On paper, it may be that lots of people can do the job, but the reality is that they can't.

I'm a dog walker and it's a job that often comes up on those threads where people are asking how to earn extra cash, as people assume it's just sticking a lead on a dog and walking round the park.

But a good dog walker walks in all weathers - rain, snow, hail, heat. They know when the weather makes it too dangerous. They know what to do if a dog gets injured or stung by a wasp and needs vet care. They're insured in case your dog gets hurt or lost or escapes it's collar. They have qualifications, know about first-aid and know how to control large groups of dogs off-lead at once.

On paper, lots of people can do it, but I've seen SO many people start it and drop out once the temperature drops, or when mud season kicks in, or when they've walked for 15 days in a row in the pissing down rain etc.

A good "unskilled" worker is worth their weight in gold. It's quite insulting to tell them they're easily replaced and that "anyone could do their job".

I also know 100% that I could not be a carer. On paper, I could do it, but I couldn't clean up bodily fluids or deal with a grown adult having a meltdown. I'm just not emotionally capable of that.

RoseStar · 16/10/2021 16:21

@Dobbyafreeelf no one is saying the work is not important. As a carer myself I know how important it is. Social care is probably the most undervalued sectors in the whole country. If anyone deserves a pay rise it’s you.

But @SW1amp is right in everything she says. And she’s saying the same as me. It might not be the same way that you see the world but it’s the way it’s understood by the forces that make things happen. And sometimes those things are free markets, like in the case of a cleaner being able to charge what they like. And sometimes it’s not, like in a LA funded care home for example.
Although as a carer, you can earn a fortune privately, so there is demand there too.

RoseStar · 16/10/2021 16:24

Actually @icedcoffees again not entirely true. Some of the best carers at a care home I go to are people who only joined in the last few months with no experience.

icedcoffees · 16/10/2021 16:25

@RoseStar

Actually *@icedcoffees* again not entirely true. Some of the best carers at a care home I go to are people who only joined in the last few months with no experience.
That still doesn't mean it's a job that anyone can do...
SW1amp · 16/10/2021 16:28

@Dobbyafreeelf

Maybe more reading and fewer emojis..?

I haven’t said absolutely anyone can do it
I’ve said it’s a job with low barriers to entry that a lot of people can do

@icedcoffees
There are many reasons behind the turnover
One is job dissatisfaction
Another is precisely that it’s an easy job to get, so lots of people use it as a temporary means for money, or a stepping stone to another career
A lot of women with gaps on their CVs will spend time as a carer to get into the workforce
Others use it as a job because it has a relative degree of flexibility compared with others
Lots do the role alongside studying for careers in other healthcare fields

It is hugely underpaid for the work, but put yourself in the shoes of a care home boss.

You need 5 employees so place an ad and get lots of applications, of which 10 could do the job well, and are willing to work for £10/hour
Why would you pay more..?

It’s only when the boss places the ad and only gets 3 applications will they place another ad offering £15 an hour

As long as people apply for the £10/hr job, the job will pay £10/hr
That’s how supply and demand works

Pinetreesfall · 16/10/2021 16:29

We pay £18 per hour in south Devon. They have a waiting list as long as your arm too! I used to pay £12 per hour in the south east so to me this seems expensive but our lovely lady does a good job. I don't have time to clean myself so it's a matter to necessity.

icedcoffees · 16/10/2021 16:34

@SW1amp but it costs money to recruit carers (or anyone, really), get them uniform and get them basic training, so IMO it's a bit silly to constantly recruit people at £10 an hour when they are clearly not the right fit for the job.

The job dissatisfaction you mention is also directly related to the fact that it's difficult work (that not everyone can do) for low pay, hence the high turnover.

It might be an easy job to get, but that's not the same as it being an easy job that just anyone can walk into and do really well.

Dobbyafreeelf · 16/10/2021 16:35

[quote RoseStar]@Dobbyafreeelf no one is saying the work is not important. As a carer myself I know how important it is. Social care is probably the most undervalued sectors in the whole country. If anyone deserves a pay rise it’s you.

But @SW1amp is right in everything she says. And she’s saying the same as me. It might not be the same way that you see the world but it’s the way it’s understood by the forces that make things happen. And sometimes those things are free markets, like in the case of a cleaner being able to charge what they like. And sometimes it’s not, like in a LA funded care home for example.
Although as a carer, you can earn a fortune privately, so there is demand there too.[/quote]
The powers that be won't change until the genera population changes their attitude. Continuing to call our PROFESSIONS unskilled, continues to erode the value and respect that we deserve.
Yes some carers can come in and and almost immediately be brilliant at the job. But that doesn't replace the experience and knowledge those of us who have made care our careers have. They will get there in time but only if they remain in the profession. And with society placing such a low value on working in care, very few do remain.
And believe me even working privately people like myself (I'm self employed now) earn just enough to scrape by. We certainly don't make a fortune!

Finchall · 16/10/2021 16:39

I think like everything else. Brexit means that workers have left Britain.

As a Local Authority we have so many cleaning and caretaking jobs available that I'm not sure how we will keep schools clean and open. LA jobs come with good pensions and sickness/holiday entitlements.

My school caretaker and cleaners were Polish, but have gone.

Supply and demand will mean your cleaners can continue to increase their charges.

SW1amp · 16/10/2021 16:42

@icedcoffees

But it’s still cheaper to pay £10/hr and have high turnover than to pay £15/hr and have lower turnover

Trust me, the economics of it are scrutinised closely all the time

icedcoffees · 16/10/2021 16:51

[quote SW1amp]@icedcoffees

But it’s still cheaper to pay £10/hr and have high turnover than to pay £15/hr and have lower turnover

Trust me, the economics of it are scrutinised closely all the time[/quote]
That may be the case for your business, but in many others it pays more to have staff loyalty and familiar faces.

I guess at the end of the day it's all personal opinion. If I was paying good money for a personal service like care, I wouldn't want a constant stream of different people coming in to my home - I'd want maybe a small group of people who I could get to know and who could get to know me too.

Lots of these jobs are about more than just profit.

Dobbyafreeelf · 16/10/2021 16:51

[quote SW1amp]@Dobbyafreeelf

Maybe more reading and fewer emojis..?

I haven’t said absolutely anyone can do it
I’ve said it’s a job with low barriers to entry that a lot of people can do

@icedcoffees
There are many reasons behind the turnover
One is job dissatisfaction
Another is precisely that it’s an easy job to get, so lots of people use it as a temporary means for money, or a stepping stone to another career
A lot of women with gaps on their CVs will spend time as a carer to get into the workforce
Others use it as a job because it has a relative degree of flexibility compared with others
Lots do the role alongside studying for careers in other healthcare fields

It is hugely underpaid for the work, but put yourself in the shoes of a care home boss.

You need 5 employees so place an ad and get lots of applications, of which 10 could do the job well, and are willing to work for £10/hour
Why would you pay more..?

It’s only when the boss places the ad and only gets 3 applications will they place another ad offering £15 an hour

As long as people apply for the £10/hr job, the job will pay £10/hr
That’s how supply and demand works[/quote]
Pay carers fairly. Treat it like a profession and not a stop gap. Don't look down on someone who tells you they are a carer.

The reason the turn over is high is because of the lack of respect people like YOU give us.

This is an interesting read
www.atlasofplaces.com/essays/on-the-phenomenon-of-bullshit-jobs/

I particularly relate to the following section

in our society, there seems a general rule that, the more obviously one’s work benefits other people, the less one is likely to be paid for it. Again, an objective measure is hard to find, but one easy way to get a sense is to ask: what would happen were this entire class of people to simply disappear? Say what you like about nurses, garbage collectors, or mechanics, it’s obvious that were they to vanish in a puff of smoke, the results would be immediate and catastrophic. A world without teachers or dock-workers would soon be in trouble, and even one without science fiction writers or ska musicians would clearly be a lesser place. It’s not entirely clear how humanity would suffer were all private equity CEOs, lobbyists, PR researchers, actuaries, telemarketers, bailiffs or legal consultants to similarly vanish. (Many suspect it might markedly improve.) Yet apart from a handful of well-touted exceptions (doctors), the rule holds surprisingly well. Even more perverse, there seems to be a broad sense that this is the way things should be. This is one of the secret strengths of right-wing populism. You can see it when tabloids whip up resentment against tube workers for paralysing London during contract disputes: the very fact that tube workers can paralyse London shows that their work is actually necessary, but this seems to be precisely what annoys people. It’s even clearer in the US, where Republicans have had remarkable success mobilizing resentment against school teachers, or auto workers (and not, significantly, against the school administrators or auto industry managers who actually cause the problems) for their supposedly bloated wages and benefits. It’s as if they are being told ‘but you get to teach children! Or make cars! You get to have real jobs! And on top of that you have the nerve to also expect middle-class pensions and health care?’

If someone had designed a work regime perfectly suited to maintaining the power of finance capital, it’s hard to see how they could have done a better job. Real, productive workers are relentlessly squeezed and exploited.

icedcoffees · 16/10/2021 16:52

As a Local Authority we have so many cleaning and caretaking jobs available that I'm not sure how we will keep schools clean and open. LA jobs come with good pensions and sickness/holiday entitlements.

They do, but they also often come with limited/restrictive hours and low pay.

Watchingyou2sleezes · 16/10/2021 17:03

@RosesAndHellebores

Oh for goodness sake *@WarmAndFluff* - did you not realise when you went into nursing that sick people didn't stop being sick at Christmas! Almost everyone I know and wherever I have worked has had to book school holiday time annual leave six months or more in advance to maintain cover.

Whilst my cleaner gets £15ph, out of that she has to pay tax and NI, let's say 20%, her own annual leave and her own sick pay.

Let's say she works 35 hpw - £525 pw. 35 x 52 = 1920 hrs per annum. If the cleaner just takes the statutory hols of 28 days and allows for 5 more when they might be ill, that's 33 days - roughly 6.5 weeks where no money is earned. £525 x 45.5 weeks = £23625/1920 = £12.30ph. Out of that the cleaner has to pay for their own pension - 20% to match total NHS pension contributions taking their hourly rate down to less than £10ph less their tax and ni. Plus they have little or no job security and do a hard physical job 100% of their time.

It would be lower than that, outside of construction very very few self employed people can consistently book in 35 fee earning hours a week
SquigglePigs · 16/10/2021 17:13

We're in Nottingham - similar size house, no dogs. Cleaner once a week and they charge £13 per hour. To be honest we're encouraging them to put it up because what she achieves in 3hrs is phenomenal!

SelfEmployedCleaner · 16/10/2021 17:23

But that doesn’t mean she is ‘skilled’, just that she has learned how to keep me happy enough to pay her a lot more so she doesn’t leave

Aniticipating needs is a skill in itself. I think you do her down by saying she isn't skilled, because there are many many people out there who won't have the skills she has and therefore won't command a premium.

Hrpuffnstuff1 · 16/10/2021 17:31

Okaaaaaay.
We had artificial wage suppression for over a decade.
Wages are now on the increase again, we're basically paying catch up.
Covid-Brexit has forced the change.
It'll be at least 5 yrs for the changes to settle post pandemic.

Pay up, I think because it's gone over £100 the rise feels larger than it is. Price inflation is normal, we've just been shielded from it.

I put my business prices up each yr, we're just reviewing company T and C too. Late payers, whingers, bargain hunters are being culled.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 16/10/2021 17:37

My cleaner (South-East) also put her prices up from £12 to £13.50 an hour from 1st September. It feels like a steep increase, but I also recognise that she's still much cheaper than most in this area.