I wish I could escape the UK...

[Itsokay2020]

Just that really! I used to love this country, but I feel really deflated today.

I read the headlines and it’s so depressing, I go for a walk and I just see overgrown hedgerows and weeds everywhere. Footpaths are becoming impossible to negotiate due to overgrowth. My energy supplier went bust, the new supplier are dragging their heals and have blocked our attempt to switch to a better rate with a new supplier. I can sense growing frustration amongst the ordinary folk in the street, it’s a melting pot. Shelves are more bare, made worse by panic headlines in the media. The cost of living is increasing, yet wages are stagnant. The government seems unable to get a grip on all that’s wrong - where is all the money going? Our local fields are being built upon - our beautiful village of 2,000 dwellings will soon increase to 3,000 plus. This is repeated across our part of East Anglia. Selfishly, I wonder where I’ll walk the dog, whilst also knowing that my DC won’t be able to live locally due to the cost of housing. Don’t get me started on GP’s and the lack of appointments.

For the first time, I feel fear about the future. Am considering escaping the South and moving North to reduce our cost of living and maybe enjoy a slower pace. Am I just having a down day or do you feel it too?

Will a new government make it better?

International media describe it in precise detail

Of course they would, why not? Divide and conquer, as they say

Silly to believe 'international media' as gospel

@mikedyson

The UK has had problems for a long time and very few of them relate to the 2008 crash. The biggest issue in the UK is that we pay comparatively very low tax. The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK have the lowest effective rate of income taxation in the EU (the top third have the fifth highest), even pre-Covid 54% of households receive more in cash benefits than they pay in tax. Lots of people had a tantrum over the NI rise and only around 8% of people make a net contribution in any one year.

What has caused the issues is too many people think that "someone else" can pay for everything, too many people do not pay enough tax to fund the UK and most in this country have a very childish attitude towards paying tax. The problem is not "disaster capitalists", it is not "bankers", it is the majority of the population.

Where the hell is this batshit narrative that poor people aren't paying enough tax coming from?

I have had a quick Goole but can't find any sources for these claims at all - is this some extremist capitalist think-tank or something?

It is not a "batshit narrative", as you call it. The simple problem is that the population is not paying enough tax. In the UK, especially the bottom two thirds (who can hardly be called "poor") is that we have such a large tax free allowance, have a look at the income taxation rates in most EU countries, including the size of their tax free allowances (we have the highest by nearly £4,000 and many countries have zero to a couple of thousand). Our VAT rate is at the lower end and we also have an exclusion on food, where as many countries charge on food at a reduced rate (5%/12.5%). Comparatively our top rate of income taxation currently 47%, soon to be 48.25% is at the higher end of the spectrum (higher than Germany and Norway, 0.75% less than France).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe

If you had a "Goole" for them but could not find the figures you did not look very hard. The link above allows you to have a look at tax rates and allowances, although it would require a bit more effort to look at other countries tax systems across all income levels. The link below shows the issue with benefits. If you wanted to look at the tantrums around the NI rise, read the news, have a look on here, plenty of people had full on meltdowns at a tiny tax rise, where as in reality it needed to be going up considerably more. Our tax to GDP ratio is also low by EU standards, despite reasonably comparable corporation tax, capital gains etc. and the difference largely comes from the very low rates of income taxation on the bottom two thirds of earners.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/theeffectsoftaxesandbenefitsonhouseholdincome/financialyearending2016#half-of-households-in-the-uk-receive-more-in-benefits-than-they-paid-in-taxes

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio

Or I guess, rather than being interested in facts, you could just have a tantrum and call people "extremist"?

You can move to Ireland and work there too without any paperwork

@PickUpAPepper
It's that old idea that rich people need to be given money to motivate them, while poor people need to be whipped.
I don't think anyone is saying that "poor" people should be whipped, nor do I think many think "rich" people should be given money, the issue is that many on here (and in wider society) seem to think that "someone else" should pay more tax to fund the services that they want provided. The reality is that we all need to pay more tax to fund the services we all need, something that is recognised in Germany, Norway, France, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. but which in the UK many seem to deliberately misunderstand.

The UK tax take is falling, because there is so much legitimate tax avoidance. It is crazy to suggest that the ordinary care worker, for instance, doing an essential job for shit wages could ever pay enough tax even en masse to make up for the likes of financial corruption at the top. Did you come across the latest financial scandal?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-41880153
The UK tax take is (or was, the NI rise will go some way to change that) falling, but the biggest cause of that drop is having the largest tax free allowance in the EU, ours being £12,600, where as in most of the EU the average is a few thousand Euros and in some it is zero.

I don't understand what they could possibly do with all that money either. It's a known fact that giving more to poorer people benefits the economy by circulation.
It is a known fact that people earning money benefits the economy far more than people being handed it. Both high wealth individuals and low wealth individuals spend money, but also utilise it in different ways, high wealth individuals are more likely to spent on goods which attract VAT, where as a much higher percentage of the income spent by low wealth individuals is spent on goods which are zero rated or are reduced. Spending patterns are complicated, but that has no bearing on how two thirds of the population have the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, whilst the top third have the fifth highest.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

How many times have you voted for this government under Cameron’s austerity, Brexit, May’s ‘red lines’ and Johnson’s ‘shit I’ve fucked up the negotiations so I’ll distract everyone with an American imported culture war because ‘cancel culture’ is apparently worse for my fans than being able to heat their homes’?

If you’ve done any of these then realise you have to take responsibility. It took until hospital wards were filthy, rubbish bins were overflowing, British seas declared toxic, school crumbling before people stopped voting for their lives to be worse in the 90s in the stupid belief that a vote for Conservatives was aspirational and harmed people they didn’t like.

The fact you says you’d ‘lost faith’ told me everything.

If you want to move, move no need for the flounce but spare a thought for those who didn’t vote for this shit but cannot run away.

What it actually took for people to vote for Labour in the 90s was a viable alternative government, Blair offered that, he offered aspiration, economic prosperity and a better country.

Brown was always the weak link in that government, the huge amounts of debt he hid off book, PPP, PFI, the biggest borrowing during a boom that the UK has ever undertaken etc. We should have hit 2008 with little to no national debt, instead we hit it with quite a large debt and with many more hundreds of billions of debt hidden off book, that reduced options and Labour's plan was to cut even harder than the Conservatives (see Darling's pitch, as Chancellor). We were then offered the wrong Miliband, following by Corbyn, who was rejected, then Corbyn again, who was rejected again. Labour spent the Brown premiership arguing, the Miliband period getting itself into a mess and the Corbyn period tearing itself apart, with the left of Labour wanting purity and happier seeing the Conservatives in power than a centre-left Labour party in power.

I would far rather have Starmer in power, but he was not an option, and even now the left of Labour seems more intent on tearing the party apart than taking the fight to the Conservatives.

I know many who did not vote for the Conservatives because they wanted a Conservative government, but because it was the least worst option of a choice between Johnson and Corbyn. When you give the public a choice of two awful options, don't be surprised if they pick an awful option.

I'm both forrin' and Remain as they come, and even I think "the UK is uniquely awful" rhetoric is overdone. For example my home country of Ireland is often held up as a sort of ideal in Remainery circles, but has most of the UK's issues (serious lack of affordable housing, massive socio-economic inequality, economy excessively skewed towards the capital & its environs) plus a few of its own (health service much less comprehensive than the NHS, childcare situation much worse judging by Irish friends with kids). Likewise I absolutely love the Netherlands in many ways (have family connections there) but - immaculate hedgerows notwithstanding - white Dutch people can be straight up out & proud racist to a shocking degree. Basically the only thing weirder than British / English exceptionalism is the weird reverse exceptionalism which holds that Britain is uniquely awful compared with 'Europe' (VERY vaguely defined)

It’s not so much a UK bashing thread but bashing the conservative government and frustration that people keep voting them in.

@IpanemaPeaHen

It’s not so much a UK bashing thread but bashing the conservative government and frustration that people keep voting them in.

I agree that the Conservative government, in it's current incarnation, is probably one of the worst government's we have ever had, with undoubtedly the PM who is least fit for office we have ever had. The issue is that at the last election (and the one before) the only alternative was Corbyn, a man who is equally, if not more unfit for office and who offered an equally bad government.

To get the Conservatives out requires something that people will vote for, Labour under Blair managed that, but the that was the first and only time in my lifetime that Labour have offered a coherent plan for government. Starmer seems to be trying, but with the fallout from Covid he has struggled for visibility and the left of Labour seem intent on tearing the party apart I think he faces an uphill battle. The Conservatives present a united front, even if largely incompetent, Labour presents a few sane and competent heads in a sea of internal factional warfare, with no idea of when the party will tear itself apart.

@londonmummy1966

Oh that far greener grass overseas...

I really wish people would count their blessings occasionally.

You live in a liberal democracy where, if your fellow citizens agree with you, you'll be able to vote out the government at the next election

You can wear what you like, go where you like, leave the house without a male chaperone's say so, drive a car, get an education, have a job etc etc

Your home isn't at risk of being bombed and you are highly unlikely to be shot down on a street corner

You live in a country where extremes of weather are not a regular occurrence

Things may not be going all your way but actually we're pretty damn lucky to live where we do.

Well said!

I could be wrong but I’m from a different country, have lived here 11 years and man the English seem to have a huge sense of superiority about pretty much everything. They may tear down their own but still maintain they’re better than Europe, Asia, America, Middle East, Africa, etc. truth is the country has been built on colonization and once it’s stopped importing talent it’s sunk even further. There are some redeeming qualities but certainly not the best place to be (unless of course you have a limited outlook and have not really lived anywhere else but here)

Matilda while I agree Labour are a massive disappointment, you could say the conservatives are worse when it comes to infighting. We are in this mess because the conservatives have prioritised keeping the ERG headbangers happy and here we are with Brexit, no CU, no SM.

@IpanemaPeaHen

Matilda while I agree Labour are a massive disappointment, you could say the conservatives are worse when it comes to infighting. We are in this mess because the conservatives have prioritised keeping the ERG headbangers happy and here we are with Brexit, no CU, no SM.

The Conservatives seem to get their infighting over with quickly, those who loose tend to disappear and largely shut up, where as in Labour they sit there bickering and actively trying to sabotage the party.

In all reality I don't know anyone who seriously thought that we would be able to leave the EU but stay in the CU and SM, that would be the most pointless exercise ever as we would have to follow the rules, but would have no say in setting them. On top of that May's red lines made the CU or SM impossible. I think that the Brexit we have was probably the only one possible, with the choice being the current mess, or cancelling it before we either invoked A15, or terminating that invocation once it was in progress but before it came into force. There was never an option for a good Brexit, it was shit Brexit or no Brexit.

Matilda while I agree Labour are a massive disappointment, you could say the conservatives are worse when it comes to infighting

Ipanema so who do you think people should vote for?

Ignoring the political narrative for a moment.

I went out today. Filled the car with petrol, no issues, no queues. Went to do my weekly shop, no stock issues at all.... and there haven't been in any week so far. I even bought some mince pies (apologies), but I bloody love mince pies and will eat them now.

The media are buggers, and stoke up fear and panic, based on very little anecdotal evidence. Today it's port congestion. There has been port congestion all year, and it is, once again, global, but to read the narrative you would think it is only happening here. A lovely man explained how it would possibly only effect a certain type of good, white goods and electronics from Asia, but you can bet your bottom dollar, people will be rushing out to buy all and everything. Food is not effected.

I have also been for a walk this afternoon. The sun is shining, the fields are being plowed and planted. I saw deer, a fox and red kite.

I think we British do a great job in always being depressed and down, and feeling we are doomed. We do love a drama.

I am blessed, obviously, but I do live in a very busy part of the South, and apart from the fuel panic last week, which was down to us, the consumer being knobs, I don't really see what you do.

@MatildaIThink

You linked to a 2016 ONS report.

You seem to be very confused about what is actually direct and indirect taxation.

Here are a few extracts from the 2021 version of that ONS data -

Over the 10-year period leading up to FYE 2020, the richest one-fifth of people's average household income after taxes, benefits and price inflation increased by an average of 0.9% per year compared with the poorest fifth, which decreased by an average of 0.3% per year.

Indirect taxes made the largest contribution (4.3 percentage points) to income inequality over the last 10 years; as a proportion of disposable income, the poorest fifth of people paid 32.9% on indirect taxes compared with 11.4% for the richest fifth of people in FYE 2020.

The amount of indirect taxes paid as a proportion of spending was similar, although the poorest fifth of people still paid a higher proportion (18.7%) than the richest fifth (15.8%) in FYE 2020.

You contention that the poorest 2/3 need to pay more (presumably income) tax (with attendant complaint about the burden for the better off) doesn't bear examination. The income tax threshold is only part of the story - and that 5+ years out of date report you linked to considers the value of things like free education and the NHS in the calculation of who is a "net contributor". Your crude claims without qualification don't bear scrutiny.

@Coffeepants

I could be wrong but I’m from a different country, have lived here 11 years and man the English seem to have a huge sense of superiority about pretty much everything. They may tear down their own but still maintain they’re better than Europe, Asia, America, Middle East, Africa, etc. truth is the country has been built on colonization and once it’s stopped importing talent it’s sunk even further. There are some redeeming qualities but certainly not the best place to be (unless of course you have a limited outlook and have not really lived anywhere else but here)

I have the opposite experience - they tear down their own country but plenty of talent still willing to come here. It’s not politically correct to say that the U.K (and most countries) aren’t anti-immigrant. They just want high value immigrants. Because an economy built on cheap labour is at odds with income equality. Furthermore calculations of the welfare ‘social contract’ rely on a stable and somewhat homogenous society - which is what Scandinavian countries have. At the end of the day none of us are statisticians - we don’t know what the average British person thinks about their country. Heck we don’t even know if the majority do - many people just get on with their lives without giving much thought to it.

I have a list of things I think that’s good and bad about the U.K. but it’s not on my list of shite countries 😂 who know though that’s just me.

Whenever I read these threads, I always wonder why people risk their lives to get to the UK (when they could stay in France or Germany) if it's such an awful place to be.
Can anyone answer this for me?

Often they have relatives here or speak the language.
Also, they don't know what it's really like and that a significant percentage of the population hate them.

@Bagamoyo1

Whenever I read these threads, I always wonder why people risk their lives to get to the UK (when they could stay in France or Germany) if it's such an awful place to be. Can anyone answer this for me?

Germany is a top choice along with the U.K. France struggles with high unemployment at the best of times Also unlike the rest of the EU the U.K. doesn’t have National ID. Very easy to stay here illegally.

@Bagamoyo1

Whenever I read these threads, I always wonder why people risk their lives to get to the UK (when they could stay in France or Germany) if it's such an awful place to be. Can anyone answer this for me?

It's much much much easier to live and work illegally here than in most of mainland Europe.

@Kendodd

Often they have relatives here or speak the language. Also, they don't know what it's really like and that a significant percentage of the population hate them.

‘Hating’ refugees is a very simplistic term to cover all the legitimate questions people have about who’s going to feed , house and integrate them. Especially since people wait years for a council house in areas with employment. And the places with lots of housing don’t have many jobs.

Some do seem very down atm on here

Do you have transferable skills to move?

I feel a bit immune to it as I choose to be here from o/s and like it a lot

Not noticed any bare shelves.
Hedgerows and roads in good condition. In fact local council are spending too much money in my opinion on unnecessary road improvements.
Housing .... well we need more housing as you admit when you say your DC will be priced out of your area.
Energy supplier - don't try to switch when you're being transferred to a new supplier because the old one went bust. Just be patient and wait till the transfer has been done otherwise you cause problems. And be very cautious when shopping around for new deals. All that glisters is not gold ...and all that!

Also unlike the rest of the EU the U.K. doesn’t have National ID. Very easy to stay here illegally.

You're right about the fact it's easy to stay (and work) illegally - but that's not due to a lack of ID, it's due to a lack of enforcement. In order to cut illegal presence and working, you'd have to show the ID all the time to people like Police - if there were enough Police around asking you for ID, we wouldn't even need the ID.

Yabu moaning about hedgerows, there are rules about when they can be cut for the good of wildlife