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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think universities should allow “pro-life” groups?

395 replies

Mellowfruitfulnessy · 10/10/2021 22:51

There’s been a few incidents in the news of universities saying that “pro life” groups should be banned because they make women in campus feel “unsafe”.

There was a protest in Exeter today and there’s been similar rumblings elsewhere.

This seems odd to me: it’s fairly standard teaching in Catholicism and the students in the group largely seem to be Christian / non-UK students. Unis are saying these groups are not “inclusive” but if mainstream religious thinking isn’t allowed, isn’t this excluding free speech? Is it really making women feel “unsafe”?

AIBU to say that pro life groups should be allowed on campuses as part of free speech/thinking/religious freedom?

OP posts:
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6
Hobnobsandbroomstick · 10/10/2021 23:41

The other 3 members have got overly simplistic and stupid views too.

To think universities should allow “pro-life” groups?
To think universities should allow “pro-life” groups?
To think universities should allow “pro-life” groups?
MurielSpriggs · 10/10/2021 23:41

[quote BurntO]@MurielSpriggs freedom of expression? Are groups advocating against the freedom of specific races cool then or is it just woman’s bodies were are good with being up for discussion?[/quote]
Hi BurntO,

I'm not so happy about racial hatred, and in fact it's illegal.

foxgoosefinch · 10/10/2021 23:41

You see, it’s important to debate and correct errors and misapprehensions. I don’t want to ban you from posting on Mumsnet because you’ve made a clear factual error about the statutory duties of universities. I do however want to correct you so that your opinion can be moderated and changed. That’s what free speech and debate is all about. You ban it, then you can’t debate and correct it and change minds.

We have a relatively clear social consensus about groups that are advocating illegality or violence or promoting hate speech rather than an opinion, and it tends to suggest we ban as little as possible because the greatest way to challenge ideologies that we don’t like is to confront and debate them openly.

Whstdoyouthink · 10/10/2021 23:42

All 4 of them are idiots, I’d never hire any of them with these views (we search on line profiles)

PearLime · 10/10/2021 23:42

@Hobnobsandbroomstick

The other 3 members have got overly simplistic and stupid views too.
Yes.

They have a right to express stupid views.

We have a right to say they're stupid.

Are you understanding how this works now???

BurntO · 10/10/2021 23:42

So laws dictating some views are acceptable but not in the case of women?

Regardless I agree they can have their views. I just don’t agree the university has to allow it on their ground.

titchy · 10/10/2021 23:42

[quote Whstdoyouthink]@IM0GEN so meet under the banner of being a catholic not under the banner of being anti abortion[/quote]
Why? Being anti abortion is perfectly legitimate view point.

donquixotedelamancha · 10/10/2021 23:46

They're not obliged to give a platform to anyone.

Yes, they are. Universities are publicly funded institutions with a duty to allow free expression.

Not sure why they are being defended

Because by defending them we defend ourselves. It's easy to defend those with popular views- the test of a free society is permitting unpopular views.

Allowing those with power to limit the speech of those without never works out in the long run.

Hobnobsandbroomstick · 10/10/2021 23:49

@PearLime

I don't think that they have any right to express those views through an official university society, no. On their own private Instagram page, sure, but not one affiliated with the university.

Whstdoyouthink · 10/10/2021 23:50

@titchy read what I was responding to, it was about saying that they were trying to ban catholics. I was making the point that it’s not the banner they are meeting under

Greenmarmalade · 10/10/2021 23:52

Yes- they should be allowed to meet and discuss their views.

Either free speech is valued or it isn’t.

MurielSpriggs · 10/10/2021 23:52

@BurntO

So laws dictating some views are acceptable but not in the case of women?

Regardless I agree they can have their views. I just don’t agree the university has to allow it on their ground.

Hello BurntO

If you're coming at this from a feminist point of view, remember there are plenty of people who would like to use the argument you're now using to shut down discussion on university campuses of what it means to be a woman, and why single-sex spaces are important.

You're on a slippery slope that might not end up where you want

IM0GEN · 10/10/2021 23:52

@Whstdoyouthink

All 4 of them are idiots, I’d never hire any of them with these views (we search on line profiles)
I think you will find that discrimination on grounds of religion is illegal. You shouldn’t be hiring anyone if you don’t know this.
TasteTheMeatNotTheHeat · 10/10/2021 23:53

I agree OP, YANBU, but as others upthread have already pointed out, it largely depends on what they are doing. We can support a well rounded discussion about ethics without needing to allow a bunch of nutters to aggressively harrass women walking into abortion clinics, for example.

I think if these groups are peaceful and respectful it sends a very worrying message if they are not allowed to participate in debates. I wouldn't want to go to that sort of university.

PearLime · 10/10/2021 23:55

[quote Hobnobsandbroomstick]@PearLime

I don't think that they have any right to express those views through an official university society, no. On their own private Instagram page, sure, but not one affiliated with the university.[/quote]
As previous posters have said universities are publicly funded bodies. They ought not to restrict free speech unless it is illegal.

Universities are about sharing ideas and education.

The Sharing of ideas includes ideas that are not widely held these days, and includes ideas that you might not like and find insulting.

A place that polices thought and polices speech is an authoritarian society. this js not what we want to create.

Surely uni students need to be presented with alternative ideas in order that they can construct arguments against those ideas, and think about why they hold their own views.

Whstdoyouthink · 10/10/2021 23:55

@IM0GEN wouldn’t touch them at all. Frankly neither would any city firm, Shows a complete lack of judgement to publish such views. On the grounds of poor judgement, that is legal.

Potteringshed · 10/10/2021 23:57

If they have the right to express their opinions, do I have the right to express my opinion to them that they are cunts?

Whstdoyouthink · 10/10/2021 23:58

@Potteringshed

This

Couldn’t agree more

Libertaire · 10/10/2021 23:58

Of course ‘pro-life’ groups should be able to promote their views in universities and elsewhere, in exactly the same way as ‘pro-choice’ groups can..

Free speech is currently under attack in Britain as never before in my lifetime. This country needs to get back to “I disagree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it”. Free speech only for people I agree with is no free speech at all.

Totallydefeated · 11/10/2021 00:00

You don't think young people, many of whom will be away from home for the first time and making their own way in the world deserve to feel safe ?

What is ‘unsafe’ about coming across somebody with a different opinion to you?

Genuine question - I keep seeing this being bandied about and I’m never quite sure what it refers to. Unsafe to me means I might be attacked or have a bad accident. Not that I might have to hear a view that doesn’t chime with my own Confused

PearLime · 11/10/2021 00:00

@Potteringshed

If they have the right to express their opinions, do I have the right to express my opinion to them that they are cunts?
Yes.

This is how free speech works:

They can say cuntish things.

We call them cunts.

If you restrict free speech, they might not be able to say cuntish things. BUT we also lose our right to call them cunts.

So overall it's better that they CAN say the cuntish things and we can also call them cunts.

OrangeJuiceAndNoodles · 11/10/2021 00:02

Yes. I don't agree with them but I believe they have the right to say and feel things that I don't agree with.

OrangeJuiceAndNoodles · 11/10/2021 00:04

You don't think young people, many of whom will be away from home for the first time and making their own way in the world deserve to feel safe ?

I went to uni a decade ago and people had all sorts of differing opinions. Which I didn't even think about at the same. But retrospectively, I think it was healthy to have that and it shouldnt be cause for alarm.

RobertaFirmino · 11/10/2021 00:04

@Totallydefeated Do you think it is 'safe' for a young woman who has had an abortion to be branded a 'murderer' or a 'child killer'.

StatisticallyChallenged · 11/10/2021 00:04

I think freedom to express opinion is important so long as it is not done in a way which targets individuals, which goes to the extent of harrassment, or which limits access to legally available medical care.

I am staunchly pro choice. I'm also pretty rad fem and gender critical.

I find their views unpleasant, but I defend their right to hold them. If they want to have a society which discusses those views, hold stalls etc then that is OK by me; but I also expect to be able to robustly disagree with them should I encounter them and for them to accept that I have the right to do so. They shouldn't, IMO, be allowed to target their activities/ literature etc at specific individual students or faculty and they shouldn't be allowed to protest outside healthcare facilities in any way which might prevent someone accessing legally available provision.

And I'd say exactly the same applies to the trans ideology vs gender critical perspective.