To know anyone irl with munchausens?

[Lw87]

Watching the gypsy rose doc, I'd never heard of munchausens disease before and can't even think I'd know anyone with it in real life

Has anyone actually had an RL encounter with someone with this?

@KungFuPrincess

I suspect someone I know has something along these lines. She constantly has an array of health complaints that always amount to nothing. She is at GP, hospital and pharmacy appointments constantly and the GP has started issuing her antibiotics to keep at home just in case, which I've never heard of in my life. I thought they actively discouraged that?

I think there's a huge element of attention seeking within these disorders and some people cant see the line between exaggerating and actually faking it. Its very sad though, whichever it is.

Actually, there are a number of conditions which merit being given antibiotics and steroids at home in a rescue pack for when things go wrong. Obviously you don’t know this, which means you fortunately don’t have one of these conditions. They don’t give them out like sweeties, that’s for sure.

Amazing how many of you claim to know someone who's always being sent for tests, scans and referrals etc, when those of us who actually are ill and desperately need these tests, keep being told no by our GPs. I have no idea how these alleged Munchausen's people actually manage to persuade doctors to test them, when some of us have been practically begging for years to be taken seriously but keep being turned away.

Someone localish pretended that their small child had cancer, went off to the city for tests and treatment, except there was no tests or treatment because the child was absolutely fine. I don't think this is muchausens by proxy because they didn't as far as I am aware do anything to the child to make them ill, they just told everyone they were ?

@Sunshinebuttercups yes I agree with you, I’m currently doing my nursing degree and there is modules on this exact model and the links between mind and body

@Rosemaryandlemon

I did *@123Applesauce456, but did you read @FateHasRedesignedMost* post? She appears to be working with patients with diagnosis of FND and says it feels like they are inventing symptoms…

I didn't. And that is problematic. For anyone interested I cannot recommend 'It's All in Your Head' enough. It's an amazing book explaining the complexities of FND. And a really interesting and accessible read:

www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=it%27s+all+in+your+head+amazon&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

not quite the same but there are some strange people around, who cause problems for innocent others.
a neighbour had been v ill, was in hosp, two bouts of sepsis, delayed treatment, both became critical while in the hosp, within 8 weeks.
so had been v ill, also had disfiguring surgery re first sepsis= very vulnerable.
at 10pm on a sunday, in a four bed side ward, she was told she had to be moved, because another incoming patient needed the bed.
i protested, that she was very weak, and staff there knew her needs.
no good, she had to shift. younger, loud, not seeming very ill patient wheeled in.
meanwhile very ill one put in a ward late at night, short-staffed, etc.
later the next day i had to go to original ward to look for lost property.
other patient told me the woman who was put in that bed had decided to leave at about 3am, after numerous complaints from other patients.
she was interrogating them about their illnesses, keeping them awake, and demanding that they converted to some sect, as the only way to survive their illness. she had no appearance of any illness herself.
one of the staff later said they thought she went all over the country doing the same thing, fabricating outlandish symptoms in A&E to be admitted, then brow-beating really ill people, and ousting others from their wards, frightening them, shouting all night, ranting and raving, saying they must convert, they're all doomed, sickness is due to sin etc.
when she met opposition she simply left to try somewhere else.

I have a rescue pack of antibiotics to keep at home. This is standard recommended treatment for some illnesses.

Yeah that's weird to assume because a person has an antibiotic supply at home that they are "faking it". My daughter had a chronic condition ages 6-12ish and we had antibiotic powder at home ready to make up if she had a flare up.

you talk about 2 patients and then in the same post talk about “Many patients” being lonely etc. You really should not be working with patients with FND if that is your attitude. A neurologist or neuro-psychiatrist will have given that diagnosis. It is not a diagnosis of exclusion

Many people are lonely, yes, not just those with FND or a diagnosis of pseudo-seizures (or I can call them functional seizures or non-epileptic seizures as the word the pseudo appears to upset some posters).
I have limited experience of FND as a diagnosis as opposed to a working diagnosis or co-existing with personality disorder. But FND is only one condition where neurology and psychiatry collide. It’s possible there are certain conditions simply undiscovered by medicine. Conditions we have no concrete tests for yet. Like many disorders, if a person with FND reports symptoms that don’t match their behaviour then professionals will start querying why.

In terms of “who pays” the NHS does not work on value judgments. I’ve done my ACL in from running. There is an organic cause for my pain. I have private health insurance so it will be fixed under that but if I didn’t the NHS would do it. I didn’t have to run, it really isn’t the best sport for the joints

You would have waited far longer on the NHS I’m afraid. Waiting times and staffing levels are through the floor right now. It has nothing to do with value judgements, where did that come from?

The same with a smoker with lung cancer. I presume you are saying they shouldn’t have treatment? What about the person who was so lonely/sad they took an overdose?

Smokers with lung cancer get fast tracked for treatment just like non smokers with lung cancer (or any cancer that is well funded).
The person so lonely/sad they took an OD will be assessed by a crisis team or mental health team in A&E and if considered risky admitted to an acute psychiatric ward (even if they don’t want to be).

Just because a doctor can’t find an organic/physical cause does not mean someone should be denied treatment which could assist. The research of Professor Edward and Jon Stone both show how people can massively improve/get better from FND with the correct MDT programme

True. But not everyone gets better with intensive FND programmes or sticks with the programme. Nobody is ‘denied’ treatment unless they refuse to engage.

Most of the posters are too flippant and blasé, about a very serious medical condition, that is very rare indeed, rarely diagnosed. Please don't belittle it.

It's as if anyone complaining about feeling unwell is a hypochondriac, or a little sniffle is flu, or covid or food poisoning.

It's a very serious thing. Most of us have no medical knowledge yet it's being 'diagnosed' by all.

Please don't do this. Have respect for what a serious and unusual condition it is.

dh has been back and forth to the GP with chronic tiredness for ten years. He has been given varying diagnosis's from nothing wrong with you, depression, low testosterone, hypothyroidism, suggested asperger's and chronic fatigue. I guess a casual observer might believe he is on the munchausen's profile due to this collection of diagnosis with very little improvement in his tiredness. However, he has just been given medication to reduce the possibility of a TIA or stroke and lo and behold the tiredness has improved (not disappeared but definitely improved). Basically, yes there was something wrong with him all these years but just that the GP (and two consultants I might add) were not able to find it). I just wonder how many people given a Munchausen's type diagnosis have had a similar pathway.

I just wonder how many people given a Munchausen's type diagnosis have had a similar pathway

To get a Munchausen’s diagnosis you’d have to fit certain criteria; including fabricating illness (sometimes to extremes like undergoing unnecessary surgeries, adding blood to urine samples, visiting multiple hospitals all over the country and being unable/unwilling to supply medical notes, or taking medications to deliberately simulate specific symptoms eg vomiting or increased HR.) It’s not a diagnosis given lightly.

The key thing with Munchausens is the patient doesn’t do it for financial gain (unlike malingering). But they may seek nurturing, attention, physical contact, company etc.

It’s a dangerous illness as they’re doing physical harm to themselves. Doctors often get frustrated as unnecessary testing, surgeries and appointments mean wasted resources and longer waiting times for other patients with genuine physical problems.

And if a patient with Munchausens receives that sought after yet unnecessary medical treatment/admission/care/concern from staff it reinforces the pattern of behaviour. Far better for the patient if the disorder is picked up quickly and they’re referred to psychiatry for prompt intensive psychological treatment.

@Angrymum22

I have a patient with a very specific psychological condition that is similar to Munchausens. I was seeing her for years, constantly being pressured into referrals for different treatments. Until I read an article in a professional journal. It was incredible how accurately it described her behaviour. Unfortunately I was helpless to treat her since it was a real niche psychiatric disorder (type of complex body dysmorphia) and treatment was not possible without a psychiatrist.

Did you refer her and did she get the treatment she needed?

@DontBiteTheBoobThatFeedsYou

I've worked with plenty of parents on the wards who have been suspected.

It's not called that now though.

Yes. Me too. Surprised how common it is.

I believe my mother practiced MBP on me throughout my childhood. Not to a serious degree thankfully but if I'd played along it could possibly have taken a different course.

How do we know Munchausens/proxy is a rare thing? Isn't it a personality disorder which are increasingly more common?

The woman I know definitely had it. How else would you explain her child having a different illness each week and then "growing out" of previous claimed illnesses? You can't "grow out" of autism. You can't grow out of epilepsy, or celiacs disease or a missing heart valve.

It's a very serious thing. Most of us have no medical knowledge yet it's being 'diagnosed' by all. nope. Nobody is diagnosing anyone. How could they the individuals aren’t their patients and they are unlikely to be qualified to do so? What they’re saying is they know someone who presents like this. You may not like people thinking this about people they know but you do have to rationalise what happens to you somehow. In my situation I have children with various conditions, individually rare but as a combination extraordinarily rare. If someone you knew developed those same conditions within their family you might be dubious especially if they dug for details and then they appeared.

I'm one of the posters who suspected a couple of autism diagnoses were shonky. It was a couple of decades ago and it was in a city where it was relatively easy to get a diagnosis if you went to the right paed or psychologist. They weren't doing the ADOS or other testing instruments.

I always worry what people think of me as I have a lot of health conditions, all diagnosed by doctors. Many present from birth, not diagnoses until my 20s.

I have EDS hypermobility type. I was in my mid 20s before anyone connected up the dots - a history of frequent UTIs since I was a baby (I was under urology until I was about 8), bedwetting etc. plus fainting, very flexible joints and a lot of soft tissue injuries. I was also under a sleep specialist due to issues sleeping. I was told I had 'weak ankles and growing pains' for years.

I was diagnosed with fibro at 22 and sent for physio. Physio spotted the hypermobility and I queried EDS but Rheumatologist said no as I didn't have stretch marks on my back.

In my early-mid twenties I was diagnosed with various comorbidities of EDS - IBS, unstable bladder, raynauds etc.

I was diagnosed with EDS by Prof Graham's team at UCLH when I was 25. They referred me to the autonomic unit who diagnosed a POTS like condition.

I also presented with asthma symptoms as a child - frequent chest infections, breathlessness, cough etc. We kept being told it wasn't asthma as I don't wheeze. I kept being told that as an adult and wasn't diagnosed until I was 29, after I was given an inhaler to help ease bronchitis and finally convinced a GP to consider asthma. I had a history of eczema and hay fever, both commonly co-morbid with asthma.

I also have epidermolysis bullosa simplex, diagnosed at 26. In fairness half of that was my parents fault, my father, uncle and grandmother all had the condition (undiagnosed) so it was assumed my blistering was 'normal'. I sought advice as an adult and was told it was my eczema causing my feet to blister (I would often have 16 blisters at a time, over both feet). It was only when I googled blistering at 25 that I first saw EB existed, realised i might have it and then took my blistered, bleeding feet to a new GP and asked for a dermatology referral. They referred me to a genetics clinic who did a DNA test and all was confirmed. I can't put into words how much my quality of life has improved since now I have proper dressings, needs, podiatry and reasonable adjustments at work.

On top of that I also have nail psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis. I have been complaining of back pain now for about 12 years and have a family history of spinal issues - ankylosing spondylitis, spondylitis, scoliosis, osteoarthritis etc. Has anyone ever scanned my back to see if my pain can be explained by any of these conditions? No, they haven't. One GP agreed to do one a couple of years ago, she referred me to local physio (who also do scans and xrays) and requested a scan but they refused to carry it out. Even my Rheumy won't scan my back even though psoriatic arthritis can often affect the back.

Because I've had to push to get appropriate tests I always worry people will think I'm exaggerating/fabricating etc. EDS in particular seems to attract scepticism - I've even had doctors ask me why I think I have EDS despite it clearly being on my records. I've also had comments at A&E about having a long list of diagnosed conditions.

I completely believe munchausens etc. exists but please do bare in mind that some people do genuinely have a lot of conditions and that some people have to push to get a diagnosis, especially women who seem to be dismissed by doctors more than men are.

I used to work with a lovely lady years ago who had twins, one of whom sadly died shortly after birth. Her DS survived and my colleague became concerned about her DS's hearing. She kept being dismissed for years by doctors as 'over anxious' with her DS due to the death of his twin sister. They eventually got a referral after her DH went to the GP with DS instead of her - her DS was diagnosed as deaf. Could have been sorted so much sooner, if only someone had believed my colleague several years prior.

Cannot share, but yes. A "by proxy" case. Very worrying.

I think my mother in law has both. She does has genuine disabilities but I think 90% are completely made up. She collapses a lot, never in front of anyone. Tests always clear.
Supposedly allergic to almost everything. Says her children are aswell. Said my husband was allergic to eggs, penicillin, has asthma, arthritis, all sorts. He doesn't have any of these things.
She tried it on with my baby son a long time ago. We nipped that in the bud straight away. Unfortunately she is is now doing it to another relatives child. I find it concerning and completely rediculous in equal measure.and I always feel very confused by other family members allowing her to act this way

My MIL.
She must be the only person on the planet to have both dangerously high, and dangerously low blood pressure, at the same time.
She is constantly in the GPs for things she has fabricated. If she thinks she has something she tells everyone she does have it, even if it hasn’t been investigated.
I lost count of the amount of times during the pandemic she presented at A&E with ‘chest pains’, whipped up terrified hysteria from DH and then after several hours was booted out after being declared fine. The last time she was being let go and she decided to start coughing everywhere and got herself onto the covid side as bonus points.
She also rambles about how poorly DH was as a child. He wasn’t.
She rambles about how DD had jaundice and colic as a baby. She didn’t. They used to come over when she wanted to cluster feed and then wouldn’t hand her back until she apoplectic. They would hold her away from me going ‘her poor tummy’ until I lost it.

I suspect there's different categories people are talking about here:

1. Health anxiety. Where they are genuinely anxious, see the doctor, doctor tells them they don't have it and they either are relieved and move onto the next illness worry, or worry the doctor may be wrong and demand further tests. They don't want there to be something wrong.

1. People who exaggerate their illness/symptoms because either they want sympathy or because they think they won't be taken seriously if they don't have "bigger" symptoms.

1. People who are genuinely ill and their symptoms don't fit into a natural diagnosis. They can't get an answer so seem to be adding more symptoms because they hope that something else will be the key to finding what's wrong, or the next specialist will be able to find out. Because an answer to what is wrong may mean they may be able to do something that helps.

1. Genuinely M/mbp

I suspect 4 is the smallest category, and 1 is the biggest.

Yes. Unfortunately a member of my family has this, however their actions to deliberately produce symptoms of illness have now caused them to be seriously ill.
Their daughter is also exhibiting the same tendencies and is projecting onto her child so is munchausen by proxy also. Both have the childhood trauma consistent with the illness.
Neither would admit they have munchausen but are both coming round to the idea their illness mental as well as physical.

I was actually accused of FII. I had to literally fight with every ounce of my strength to clear my name it was absolutely awful