To think that to arrest climate change

[mikedyson]

We cannot continue to operate as Western Liberal democracies using a broadly capitalist model.

If we are going to achieve the changes we need - the entire economic and political system will have to change.

YABU. The USSR wreaked vast amounts of environmental damage in its time. Dictatorships aren't green.

@DdraigGoch

YABU. The USSR wreaked vast amounts of environmental damage in its time. Dictatorships aren't green.

I absolutely cannot disagree - but equally I cannot see how the current system is going deliver the sorts of major changes the scientists are saying we will need?

There are too many people on the planet. How do we reduce the population by 70% in 10 years and then have a strict breeding program to prevent population growth.
Sort this and climate change can be stopped.
Don’t sort it and we are all going the way of the Dodo.

To be clear - I am not advocating State control (at all), but I am concerned that without some draconian measures (which won't be delivered by market forces) we won't be doing enough to stop climate change?

How can you have draconian measures without state control?

@NotDavidTennant

How can you have draconian measures without state control?

I don't think you can - so it seems to me we'll have to make a choice.

Yes.

The general public’s view that the options are 1) late capitalism or 2) communist dictatorship and NOTHING ELSE is disturbing (see PPs).

We can’t go on consuming as we are, and our economy needs to get focused on the quality of life and not growth. That’s all very possible without having a lunatic with a habit of shootout his friends and then deleting them from the photos in charge.

@Penners99

There are too many people on the planet. How do we reduce the population by 70% in 10 years and then have a strict breeding program to prevent population growth. Sort this and climate change can be stopped. Don’t sort it and we are all going the way of the Dodo.

There is a rather less drastic way of stopping population growth available (though actual reductions would take time. The biggest bit of it is female emancipation and education. History has proven time again that when women are able to work, particularly in educated or skilled roles, the birth rate falls.

The birth rate hasn't dramatically risen. The average life expectancy has. If population control is implemented by forcing a drop in the birth rate it'll lead to other problems as there'll be less people 20 years onwards down the line to provide service to the rest of the population.

The elephant in the room, as has already been stated, is overpopulation.

Unless people everywhere limit the number of offspring they produce, this problem is going nowhere.

When I saw the ABoC on TV the other day talking to religious leaders about how they will support climate action, this immediately sprung to mind. Organised religions actively discourage contraception and forbid abortion. Unless they radically change their stance on this then they’ll always be part if the problem.

What does non-capitalist world look like?
How would things get done?

Anarcho Primitivism is the answer. We need to go back to Paleolithic style living, but I don't think people will go for that because the hardships would be severe and billions of deaths would need to occur. Plus there'd be no one to look after the decaying nuclear reactors. That would be the answer though.

So - in short - we're fucked.

Yes, we are fucked. Even if we do something about it, I doubt countries like China, Brazil and Russia would seriously get on board. People are selfish and only think short term. The natural conclusion will be wars, famine and mass species extinction before the earth can get rid of humans and recover. We're like parasites killing the host. The earth's big enough to handle it, but not before massive social and environmental upheaval and catastrophe.

So there's not a lot of point in people gluing themselves to anything really....

@mikedyson

So - in short - we're fucked.

Yup.

@mikedyson

So there's not a lot of point in people gluing themselves to anything really....

Nope.

Just a waste of glue...

YABU
Capitalism and democracy have zero impact on how green a country is insofar as combating climate change. Revolutions like what happened to create the USSR cause excess deaths in the millions and severe environmental damage. Therefore any change to the economic or political system would be counter productive.
ccpi.org/

"Capitalism and democracy have zero impact on how green a country is insofar as combating climate change."

That cannot be right - if people don't vote for green policies and governments therefore don't enact them, how is that not an impact of democracy?

There is a rather less drastic way of stopping population growth available
Is it kill all Tories because I am HERE for it

@mikedyson

"Capitalism and democracy have zero impact on how green a country is insofar as combating climate change."

That cannot be right - if people don't vote for green policies and governments therefore don't enact them, how is that not an impact of democracy?

What makes you think people don’t?

Sweden #1 in world for progress against climate change...what are they? Capitalist democracy

USA dead last in the world for progress against climate change....what are they? Capitalist democracy

Capitalism and democracy are not the problem.

I cannot see how the current system is going deliver the sorts of major changes the scientists are saying we will need?

Pah “the current system” delivered a worldwide ban on CFCs which has resulted in the world being 1.5C degrees cooler than it would have been if we had kept on spraying those aerosol cans and using freon to refrigerate. I don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility to replicate that same achievement a second time?

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/19/saving-ozone-layer-has-given-humans-a-chance-in-climate-crisis-study

www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/cfc-ban-gave-humans-a-fighting-chance-against-global-warming-study-says/ar-AANsTTg

I agree OP.
What we need is a dramatic reduction/change in our living standards. People will never vote for that.

What we need is a dramatic reduction/change in our living standards

No we don’t. We didn’t have to do without refrigerators to stop CFCs did we? We simply replaced freon with green coolant and our standard of living got better. It’s the same with CO2, use hydrogen instead to power cars, ships, aircraft. Generate electricity with known clean energy sources. Build more of the CO2 scrubbers that take CO2 out of the atmosphere and create a carbon sink and generate oxygen (this technology was just tested successfully on Mars)

Technology got us in this mess and we have the technology NOW to get out of it. We just need to invest in it and propagate it round the world.