To think that to arrest climate change

[mikedyson]

We cannot continue to operate as Western Liberal democracies using a broadly capitalist model.

If we are going to achieve the changes we need - the entire economic and political system will have to change.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Maybe you're right, I hope you're right. Maybe I'm too pessimistic and sad about thinking I should be vegan and not fly.

@mikedyson

To be clear - I am not advocating State control (at all), but I am concerned that without some draconian measures (which won't be delivered by market forces) we won't be doing enough to stop climate change?

I love a little double speak of an evening.

Do tell us your plans for us. How will this ingenious new system of free draconianism operate?

@Kendodd

I agree OP. What we need is a dramatic reduction/change in our living standards. People will never vote for that.

What we need is a dramatic reduction / change in the living standards of the richest. Fixed that for you. You're right that people won't vote for it though, any more than a bunch of Tory landlords will vote for lower house prices or council housing.

Do tell us your plans for us. How will this ingenious new system of free draconianism operate?
Nice sneering. I don’t have a plan. I can’t see how it’s going to be possible.

@Kendodd
I am pretty hopeful, I admit. I remember as a child rivers catching on fire due to the heavy pollution. Lakes that were so poisoned they had no fish or other living thing in them. Toxic waste dumps bright orange with dead trees standing in them. Smog alerts where you could not go outside because the air was too polluted to breathe.

Things are much improved. Change has happened and is continuing to happen. The momentum is increasing yearly. My children grew up in a greener, cleaner world than I did, I have hope that it will be even better for their children.

We are on the right track and just need to keep the torch alight.

@PlanDeRaccordement seriously, thank you for your posts on this thread. I get intermittently so caught up in absolute horror at The State Of Climate Change, what world have i brought my children into etc, and it is SO good to read something informed and optimistic and reassuring.

@NellWilsonsWhiteHair
Thank you. There is too much negativity out there, and I do worry that it will paralyse people into inaction. We are definitely not “fucked” as previously posted.

I haven’t addressed the overpopulation thing yet, but there is good news on that front too. (As a side note, we already produce enough food to feed 10bn. It’s food waste and supply chain mismanagement that causes world hunger, not lack of food.)

“The world’s population continues to grow, albeit at a slower pace than at any time since 1950, owing to reduced levels of fertility. From an estimated 7.7 billion people worldwide in 2019, the medium-variant projection1 indicates that the global population could grow to around 8.5 billion in 2030, 9.7 billion in 2050, and 10.9 billion in 2100.”
“Later in the century, although a continued increase of the global population is considered the most likely outcome, there is roughly a 27 per cent chance that the world’s population could stabilize or even begin to decrease sometime before 2100.”
“Globally, the level of fertility is expected to fall from an average of 2.5 live births per woman in 2019 to 2.2 in 2050 and to 1.9 in 2100, according to the medium-variant projection.”

population.un.org/wpp/Publications/Files/WPP2019_Highlights.pdf

@mikedyson

Do tell us your plans for us. How will this ingenious new system of free draconianism operate? Nice sneering. I don’t have a plan. I can’t see how it’s going to be possible.

If you don’t have any ideas as to what these “draconian measures” might be, then how can you possibly know that market forces/capitalism/democracy can’t deliver them?

If you don’t have any ideas as to what these “draconian measures” might be, then how can you possibly know that market forces/capitalism/democracy can’t deliver them?

I’m too stupid to figure it out so I posted an AIBU so clever people could help.

Would a global pandemic help?

Followed maybe by another one?

We need the purpose of the economy to be people's wellbeing and needs (within resource limits), rather than maximising shareholder value through unlimited extraction of resources.

So not capitalism, not Ussr either. Something where compassion is the key value. A lot more equality rather than a few millionaires with huge wealth.

I think it would mean things like a universal basic income to give that basic human dignity.

@chilled
But that is the purpose of the economy- to distribute goods and services to meet basic needs (and wants).

“Maximising shareholder value through unlimited extraction of resources” describes not the economy (or any economy for that matter) but a corporate approach of profit maximisation at any cost. Which is why governments regulate corporations to ensure sustainability.

I agree wealth and income inequality is a problem, but it is independent of whether the country is capitalist or socialist or communist. Again, the difference between these is in ownership of the means of production. That’s it.

How would UBI be any different from UC in amount? And how could any country afford to pay basic UC to every citizen working or not? No matter how much wealth they might already have? UC is simply means tested UBI in all honesty.

@PickUpAPepper

What we need is a dramatic reduction / change in the living standards of the richest.

While I agree the rich world holds the vast majority of the blame for the mess the planet is in, I think you have a rather outdated view of the developing world. People in the developing world live modern lives and use vast amounts of single use plastics (for example) even disposable nappies. The countries often don't have the infrastructure to deal with this waste and so it ends up in the sea, sometimes with our waste that we've shipped over. Overall I wouldn't be surprised if the fishing industry dumped more at sea than both of us though (a guess). On the plus side for the developing world, with the modern lifestyle (which they absolutely should have) comes a fall in fertility.

The countries often don't have the infrastructure to deal with this waste
In fairness, neither do we.
A thread a while ago suggested we should all have carbon rationing books.

I must admit, I fall into the “fucked” camp tbh. The changes needed are too big and wealth is being hoarded by too few people.

The pandemic has really made me lose faith in people. The way our government has acted out of sheer short term greed for its own friends and families tells us, I suspect, something in human nature for pulling up the ladder behind us. We’d rather be rich than save lives.

If there was ever a time that our leaders and society could have pulled together, it was the last two years. And look at the state of us.

Which is why governments regulate corporations to ensure sustainability.
Eh? There's nothing "sustainable" about oil and mineral extraction - how are we going to replace these resources? And they are needed to create wind turbines and solar arrays.
I don't see much "sustainable" in the way China is currently extracting and burning coal.