for christ's sake NHS

[lolliwillowes]

Why are you still advising people to choose low fat margarine over butter?
The entire food plate thing is a disaster, encouraging people to stay healthy long term by substituting natural fats for Frankenstein-fats.

Surely I am not BU?

When I was a kid I used to refuse margarine because I thought it tasted like plastic. As an adult I discovered that their chemical formulae only differ by something like an atom

Whereas butter differs from plastic by two atoms.

OK I made that up. But I doubt that two products that have such similar properties are massively different from each other, from an organic chemistry point of view.

@LaurieFairyCake

I'm taking issue with your inflammatory language - they're obfuscating the real issue which is that margarine is much further away from natural food than butter is

Processed and highly or extremely processed are different

So you can't disagree with anything I've said, factually, so you're going to go for my "inflammatory language" instead. Good tactic!

I grew up on a dairy farm. I've been to processing facilities, on a field trip in school and again as an adult when looking at some IT systems for a major producer. Milk is highly processed before it even leaves the cow - hormones and all kinds of medication. Then it's pasteurised and homogenised. The milk is processed in all kinds of ways at every stage and yes even with "chemicals" that you don't see on the packet because they're either washed away or they remain in only trace amounts in the final product. So, yes, dairy products including butter are highly processed unless you're buying them all fresh-churned from your local dairy maid or whatever. In some ways it's more process-heavy than margarine, because there is so much potential variability in the base ingredient (milk changes based on season, weather, general mood of cows) that has to be managed and accounted for.

Yes I disagree with you factually

And so does the government who decide what is processed and what is HIGHLY processed

You said it was highly processed

It is NOT

It is processed

"Stick to food your grandmother would have recognised". The last one needs to be relative; my grandmother wouldn't have recognised quinoa if she'd tripped over it in the dark, but she'd have recognised natural grains.

I really like this.

My grandmas cooked a lot with barley and oats. The oats wrapped fish. Barley for soup and stews.

@lolliwillowes YANBU. I would rather have delicious FULL-FAT REAL BUTTER, and have less of it, than have low fat tasteless muck...

The whole NHS advice to food and weight management is seriously poor.

Interesting points about plant oils, such as rapeseed, etc.
I read about omega 6 and some studies regarding the issues surrounding hydrogenated oils and poor health outcomes. As with most stuff these days, I have literally no idea anymore which damn food is good or bad for me, with so many conflicting studies floating around.

I dod do a small experiment though. I looked up a large variety of non-raw foods on Ocado one evening and almost everything contained these hydrogenated oils, and quite a few other, unnecessary ingredients that boggle the mind - and a massive amount of these were in foods that claimed to be healthy or organic.

Some examples were : Wholegrain pitta bread, organic mayo, some spreadable butter, all meat and fish coatings/crumbs, sauces, most gluten free stuff, crackers (apart from ryvita, which were curiously pure, haha!).
It was very difficult, unless buying raw ingredients, to find any food without rapeseed oil. I guess it depends on how bad it is, and whether it is fine in moderation.

My GP is pretty ok, not perfect, but does recommend moderation in all things, rather than dropping entire food groups. She even admitted cheese was innocent....

What is it with cheese and cholesterol checks? Im fond of cheese but it can stack the weight on whether it's healthy or not!

And to add, here are the ingredients in a slice of Warburtons white bread. How are so many of these even necessary?

Wheat Flour [with Calcium, Iron, Niacin (B3) and Thiamin (B1)], Water, Yeast, Salt, Vegetable Oil (Rapeseed, Sustainable Palm), Soya Flour, Preservative: Calcium Propionate, Emulsifiers: E481, E472e, Flour Treatment Agent: Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C)

Palm oil in bread does my head in.

Why on Earth? I mean, I know why, it stays “fresh” for longer, but still.

Margarine is much more heavily processed than butter. It goes through various phases of production where it is emulsified, pasteurised and crystallised. Emulsions and chemicals are added throughout and sometimes the product goes through this cycle more than once.
There are strict regulations on the presence of antibiotics and other medications in milk. Samples are taken and tested before positive release of the product so I dispute that milk is ‘processed in the cow’. Unless you count lactation 🤷🏻‍♀️. Milk is usually pasteurised before the mass production of butter, it isn’t necessary to use homogenised milk as the butter churning homogenises the milk so it’s a waste of time, money and equipment. Artisan and small scale butter producers such as Jersey butter use raw milk so this butter has been processed very little. In no way is butter more process heavy than margarine.

There used to be a margarine factory just outside Liverpool. My ex used to say if you ever smelled the smell from that factory, you’d never eat it. It’s ‘natural’ colour is grey, it’s dyed yellow as no one would spread grey mush on their toast.

I went into my GP a few years ago about weight loss. They gave me a few printouts, one of which was on the ‘Mediterranean diet’, this one didn’t involve lots of fresh fish and veg but ‘starchy carbs’. Strange.

Food companies make billions from shelf stable long life ultra processed foods. Food companies donate large amounts to the Conservative party, and pay lobbyists to make damn sure their interests are represented. Any attempt to sort out the diet of the nation, or the US, runs aground on this.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Palm oil in bread does my head in.

Why on Earth? I mean, I know why, it stays “fresh” for longer, but still.

it never feels fresh to me, just damp!

core.ac.uk/download/pdf/19629931.pdf

There are loads of studies about rape seed oil. But basically it is about the amount of erucic acid they contain creating mitochondrial oxidative stress.

My reading of this is that our mitochondria need some good protective fat to stay healthy. Animal fats, butter and olive oil have low oxidation and so protect the mitochondrial functioning - but these highly processed Poly and Mono unsaturated fats / processed thermally produced seed oils do not and are actually toxic for their functioning, perhaps leading to chronic disease, as they are seeing in animal studies.

I saw an advert on the side of a McDonald's lorry the other day bragging that they recycle their vegetable oil into biodiesel for their lorries. I mean, even at a very basic level of knowledge and intuition, if the oil is basically diesel that's surely not very appealing.

Malcom Gladwell did a great podcast about McDonald's being pressured into changing their fat from beef dripping to vegetable oil, and what a travesty that was for health (and taste!) podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/mcdonalds-broke-my-heart/id1119389968?i=1000390869555 There is lots of good info about our disaster around fat in this podcast.

@lolliwillowes

And to add, here are the ingredients in a slice of Warburtons white bread. How are so many of these even necessary?

Wheat Flour [with Calcium, Iron, Niacin (B3) and Thiamin (B1)], Water, Yeast, Salt, Vegetable Oil (Rapeseed, Sustainable Palm), Soya Flour, Preservative: Calcium Propionate, Emulsifiers: E481, E472e, Flour Treatment Agent: Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C)

It is barely even a food, let's face it!

very interesting lecture on the history and issues with hydrogenated/veg oils

@hamstersarse

core.ac.uk/download/pdf/19629931.pdf

There are loads of studies about rape seed oil. But basically it is about the amount of erucic acid they contain creating mitochondrial oxidative stress.

My reading of this is that our mitochondria need some good protective fat to stay healthy. Animal fats, butter and olive oil have low oxidation and so protect the mitochondrial functioning - but these highly processed Poly and Mono unsaturated fats / processed thermally produced seed oils do not and are actually toxic for their functioning, perhaps leading to chronic disease, as they are seeing in animal studies.

I saw an advert on the side of a McDonald's lorry the other day bragging that they recycle their vegetable oil into biodiesel for their lorries. I mean, even at a very basic level of knowledge and intuition, if the oil is basically diesel that's surely not very appealing.

Malcom Gladwell did a great podcast about McDonald's being pressured into changing their fat from beef dripping to vegetable oil, and what a travesty that was for health (and taste!) podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/mcdonalds-broke-my-heart/id1119389968?i=1000390869555 There is lots of good info about our disaster around fat in this podcast.

thanks this is interesting!

I've seen Nina Teicholz's stuff before - she is very good @lolliwillowes

I saw this the other week which I though was a really good explanation of where we are with it all.

I really think these oils are absolutely toxic

I agree! Much rather eat butter and milk and cream immoderation than that processed fake butter stuff, always made me feel rough. The whole low fat diet thing is.out of date. Sugar is much more evil than pure fat like butter or olive oil.

@Rainbowsew

I agree! Much rather eat butter and milk and cream immoderation than that processed fake butter stuff, always made me feel rough. The whole low fat diet thing is.out of date. Sugar is much more evil than pure fat like butter or olive oil.

Exactly this. ^ I would much rather eat full-fat, full-sugar stuff, (and eat less of it,) than eat tasteless crap.

I saw an advert on the side of a McDonald's lorry the other day bragging that they recycle their vegetable oil into biodiesel for their lorries. I mean, even at a very basic level of knowledge and intuition, if the oil is basically diesel that's surely not very appealing

Seriously? You think that because an organic product can be converted into fuel its automatically harmful to health?

Well bad news - biodiesel is also be made by converting animal fats so better scrap all that butter, cheese and red meat. I mean you might as well drink petrol right?

That rat study was feeding the rats a diet which was 20% rape oil. I wouldn't recommend any diet to be 20% one ingredient. Your mitochondria won't be seeing that rape oil until its broken down to constituent fatty acids, just like any other fat.

Modern rapeseed oil is extremely low in erucic acid but high in omegas making a rich source of unsaturated and monosaturates. You will find more studies of size (and on humans) which show rapeseed on the good side of the pendulum than bad.

@hamstersarse

I've seen Nina Teicholz's stuff before - she is very good *@lolliwillowes*

I saw this the other week which I though was a really good explanation of where we are with it all.

I really think these oils are absolutely toxic

I'm sure Teicholz's views are entirely independent of the fact that she is part of a lobbying organisation supported by the meat and dairy industries.
Perhaps its based on her rigorous scientific training which I'm sure she gained alongside her actual degrees in American studies except I can't quite find evidence or that training or qualification.

Try being a type one diabetic, my diabetes nurse advises me to increase my carbs and that fruit juice is an option for one of my five a day…genuinely worried she is trying to kill me

I dont care what the advice is. I love butter.

OK I made that up. But I doubt that two products that have such similar properties are massively different from each other, from an organic chemistry point of view.

They are totally different

butter is food

margarine is toxic waste