for christ's sake NHS

[lolliwillowes]

Why are you still advising people to choose low fat margarine over butter?
The entire food plate thing is a disaster, encouraging people to stay healthy long term by substituting natural fats for Frankenstein-fats.

Surely I am not BU?

@LaurieFairyCake of course churning milk is a process. And while you may be able to produce butter at home by shaking milk in a jar or whatever, I can assure you that every butter you buy in a store is made in a factory and is thoroughly processed in massive steel vats by people in white coats and hairnets. Do you think that there are pink-cheeked, barefoot milkmaids lined up in Ireland churning butter and lovingly wrapping it in gold foil stamped "kerrygold"?

Everything is a chemical and has chemicals in it. Every food you buy is processed and preserved in some way. Even a loose apple in a bin at the local market has been waxed and stored in a room full of a special gas (can't remember what it's called) to keep it fresh for weeks or even months before it gets to you. You can make decisions on how MUCH you want your food to be processed but you can't opt out of it entirely.

@Eeiliethya

I read somewhere once that even mould won't grown on margarine.

I don't know how true that is but it won't ever enter my fridge. Lurpak or nothing in this house! Although I do quite like Asda's own real butter, I just can't spread the fucker.

Mould doesn't tend to grow on salted butter, either. It can go rancid or absorb other flavours but I can't remember ever seeing mould on it even though growing up we kept it on a counter in a warm kitchen year round. While the steps to get to margarine are a lot more complex than the steps required to get to butter, the actual physical properties of the finished product aren't hugely different. That's why they work so similarly in baked goods (even if they don't taste exactly the same).

@herculesoffline lol have you ever made it?
Get some cream, put it in a bottle or jar. Shake vigorously for a few minutes. You have butter. Nothing needs to be added. If my processed you mean the milk has come out of the cow processed then yes I guess you have a point with all the crap / hormones they feed cows but it can by made with non processed milk also.
Butter is not really what you would call a ‘processed’ food

The Eatwell guide is hopelessly out of date and yet that's what we have to teach students. I cringe every time I say that meals are to be based around a starchy carbohydrate.

[quote Wroxie]@LaurieFairyCake of course churning milk is a process. And while you may be able to produce butter at home by shaking milk in a jar or whatever, I can assure you that every butter you buy in a store is made in a factory and is thoroughly processed in massive steel vats by people in white coats and hairnets. Do you think that there are pink-cheeked, barefoot milkmaids lined up in Ireland churning butter and lovingly wrapping it in gold foil stamped "kerrygold"?

Everything is a chemical and has chemicals in it. Every food you buy is processed and preserved in some way. Even a loose apple in a bin at the local market has been waxed and stored in a room full of a special gas (can't remember what it's called) to keep it fresh for weeks or even months before it gets to you. You can make decisions on how MUCH you want your food to be processed but you can't opt out of it entirely.[/quote]
That’s not what’s meant when talking about processed foods in 2021 and you know it. Stop being petty and facetious

@Silverswirl I am not being petty or facetious. Every food is processed. Butter is extremely processed. There is a massive amount of classism and ignorance involved in the debate between "real food" and "processed food" that completely ignores the realities of how food is produced and makes people feel guilty for feeding their families what they can afford and what they have time to prepare. I could go into this more but it's kind of derailing - this is a thread about NHS dietary guidelines, which I agree are stupid. But pretending that your sourdough loaf bought unwrapped in the bread aisle at waitrose wasn't removed from it's plastic wrapper by staff that very morning, and that it wasnt made using the exact same flour and flour conditioners/chemicals as the warburton's loaf on the wall next to it, is idiotic.

@wroxie

I do think you have a good point. Our food environment is pretty toxic.

We really try to eat absolutely no processed food at all, but it is extremely difficult. They put shit into everything, and even if they don't you can't be sure what the animals have been fed etc.

But there is still no doubt that butter is better than margarine, and even the spreadable shite too.

Any fancy staring a Change.org petition or petition parliament?

Change.org

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/check (needs 5 emails)

I would but I don't really know much about it, bar an atavistic disgust response- that's such crap advice, eugh transfats and it needs a more reasoned blurb.

I think they already know @Etinox

But we are in a hole. A huge part of our economy is reliant on this processed food industry.

Look on your streets - fast food takes up at least 50% of places

Your supermarkets - I only shop in 4 aisles. The rest are full of processed crap.

A government literally cannot put these businesses out of business by changing their advice overnight. They are probably having to do drip drip to give the economy time to adjust. They started with the sugar tax, and I would think there are more adjustments coming. The food industry will be aware.

The food industry will be aware.

I should say I know they are aware. I work with a few and I have seen their 5 year strategies.....they know what is coming.

@Etinox

Any fancy staring a Change.org petition or petition parliament?

Change.org

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/check (needs 5 emails)

I would but I don't really know much about it, bar an atavistic disgust response- that's such crap advice, eugh transfats and it needs a more reasoned blurb.

Great idea!

I reckon a Government petition seeing as they have to respond if we get enough signatures.

@Wroxie

Oh yes definitely!

And this is why real bread and real dough is just so bloody good!

I am currently living out of a microwave and temporary stove as in a house renovation. But I cannot wait to get my new kitchen with an oven and a proving drawer.

@theDudesmummy thank you for sharing that guardian article. It's really useful! It just shows that one or two badly carried out studies, publicised well, will stick in our minds for generations. Off to have some more cheese now

My DH was highly delighted by that article, he said "well we are having steak twice a week now!".

@LaurieFairyCake

Butter is MILK SHAKEN

It's not 'processed'

I've actually made butter and that's ^^ all I did (you don't have to add salt - I did though because salted butter is the best)

EXACTLY. Butter is technically processed but it's so low-tech, low-input that you can do it at home yourself if you want. It's one step up from saying squeezing oranges means the juice is processed 😂

I don't think I could whip up a tub of Flora or whatever in my kitchen.

Butter is NOT highly processed

Highly processed food contains loads of ingredients, E numbers etc, multiple processes

This butter from M and S is milk and salt - that's IT

Why the hell are you derailing this thread with this utter bullshit ?

Highly processed foods have additives that go beyond sugar and salt

According to the definition

Do you mean me? I was agreeing with you... Read it again.

Goodness no

Was to Wroxie

😂 just checking!

@Ratched

I saw the nurse at my practice last week. I am 60, weigh 9st 4lbs and am living with cancer. I walk 7 or 8 miles a day and swim 3 days a week. I wear size 10 jeans and a size 12 top ( sometimes a 14). I was told that my ideal weight was 7st 4lbs and to eat lots of low fat foods, fruit and vegetables. And asked if I needed dietary advice. I was actually really upset when I came out then thought sod it! And not being funny, but when that sage advice is given by a young woman who is at least several stones overweight, it jars.

@Ratched That is shocking. No wonder you were upset, you had every right to be.

I think ultra processed food is going to be the next realisation; that tinkering with food to make it cheap and taste/smell/look/feel the same but doing so by filling them with substitutes, isn't a good thing. The food companies aren't going to like it because there's little money to be made in developing foods made from unprocessed ingredients. Their argument seems to be "Well, we need cheap food because otherwise poor people can't afford it". So it's OK to expect them to eat food that's bad for them?

This is an excellent article (and the Nova system it references is something I use a lot when choosing foods) www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/how-ultra-processed-food-took-over-your-shopping-basket-brazil-carlos-monteiro

Two rules I live by: "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants" and "Stick to food your grandmother would have recognised". The last one needs to be relative; my grandmother wouldn't have recognised quinoa if she'd tripped over it in the dark, but she'd have recognised natural grains.

Regarding processing, have a look at the Nova system in the article above. It covers the four different types of processing and the effect is has on food.

As an example, if I had milk and drank it in the form in which it came out of the cow, that's stage 1. Pasteurising it, where it's briefly super-heated but is still recognisably milk, is stage 2. Turning it into yogurt by souring it with lemon juice would be stage 3. Adding stabilisers, emulsifiers, preservatives and artificial flavouring to make a commercial yogurt is stage 4.

Stage 1 is a natural product, stages 2 and 3 are processed but recognisable and relatively un-modified and/or still using recognisable ingredients, stage 4 is ultra-processed.

No

You said butter is EXTREMELY processed

It's processed, NOT 'extremely' or 'highly'

It does not meet the definition of highly processed- it contains 2 ingredients

I'm taking issue with your inflammatory language - they're obfuscating the real issue which is that margarine is much further away from natural food than butter is

Processed and highly or extremely processed are different