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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Food is too cheap ?

261 replies

Loveshelly · 01/10/2021 23:08

Food has never been cheaper, meat is unbelievably cheap. Even with a conscious move towards less meat consumption it’s clear that huge consumption of cheap meat is going on.

AIBU to think that we all need to spend more on our produce, especially in the wake of brexit, we clearly cannot rely on cheap labour anymore. So we are going to have to pay more.

All I tend to see on MN is people desperate to get food bills down, then on another thread people fretting they can’t keep heating on all night.

Have we become totally skewed about what are the things we should be spending more and less on.

OP posts:
queenofarles · 04/10/2021 11:37

I get what you mean OP,
There is an interesting clip on YT about Tesco shopping in the 70s , not huge inflation prices on most branded items , today you can find same items In supermarket own brands even much cheaper.
Clothes are cheaper too,

But everything else is so expensive, it makes no huge difference on savings or weekly spending .

Popoloco · 04/10/2021 11:37

@Wazzzzzzzup I guess I’m comparing to the large European countries which I know better (Italy, France, Spain) and where the med diet prevails over the ultra processed diet.

The food ingredients in Italy are far superior to what you can buy in the UK. You can make a very tasty meal out of simple ingredients. In the UK it’s not so easy because the basic flavour is lacking unless you pay substantially more.

Wazzzzzzzup · 04/10/2021 11:43

[quote Popoloco]@Wazzzzzzzup I guess I’m comparing to the large European countries which I know better (Italy, France, Spain) and where the med diet prevails over the ultra processed diet.

The food ingredients in Italy are far superior to what you can buy in the UK. You can make a very tasty meal out of simple ingredients. In the UK it’s not so easy because the basic flavour is lacking unless you pay substantially more.[/quote]
Tbf it would be easy in here if people didn't have some aversion to herbs and spices, many of which are incredibly easy to access🙈
(Just actually had an interesting thread on lemons and such).

But yes, compared to these countries, the quality is lacking, I agree!

Popoloco · 04/10/2021 11:43

I remember going shopping with my mum in the early 90s (Sainsbury’s) and the bill always being close to £100 pw for family of 4. I was always shocked as that was a lot of money back then.

Fast forward to 2021 and I’d never spend more than £100 pw on my family of 4. It does feel that prices of many basics haven’t really risen. But also some of the convenience foods my mum bought have come down in price (probably quality too!). I don’t buy these convenience foods so my trolley is made up of basics and better quality meat and dairy. My mum didn’t really cook from scratch so might explain the high cost of her shop, but I don’t think the price would be much less now as the convenience foods have really dropped in price.

TractorAndHeadphones · 04/10/2021 11:44

@Cornettoninja

I disagree *@Claudyapples*.To bulk buy raw ingredients that make more portions and can be used for other meals requires an initial outlay that isn’t something everyone has. That prepared £1 ready meal may cost more when it’s broken down but the immediate cost is lower because you’re only purchasing a portion of a prep related larger bulk.

Over time the person who can only afford to spend £1 at the time will pay more than the person who can afford a bag of pasta, milk, flour and cheese. Then you can look at the ability to store food in bulk and the person who can afford to purchase and run a larger freezer has a distinct advantage over the person who only has a tiny freezer compartment.

Nobody travel everyday to buy £1 worth of ready meals. Even if you had £1 you could still buy a bag of pasta or rice and have more than the ready meal itself. As a poor student with no fridge/freezer (people kept nicking stuff from the shared kitchen so I had to keep it in my room) I managed on a low budget. Housing is crazy in the U.K. but food is cheap. There will always be people who struggle and can’t afford anything but that’s not because food is expensive. The working poor are hit hard by high rent and utility costs. When a huge proportion of your salary whizzes through your bank account without you even seeing it you won’t have enough to spend on much else.

It’s like trying to save £1 a day for a house deposit. That’s only a few hundred a year and by the time you save enough prices will have gone up. Doubling the saving (lowering food costs) to £2 won’t help much either. And that’s in the BEST case assuming you have a steady few quid to save.

flipflopping · 04/10/2021 11:45

Food is too cheap, housing is too expensive.

Popoloco · 04/10/2021 11:45

@Wazzzzzzzup yes! I credit Jamie Oliver for learning to cook with spices and herbs - if it weren’t for him I’d be eating shite!

MatildaIThink · 04/10/2021 12:28

@Popoloco

I don’t agree

Housing costs are crippling for working age people in many parts of the U.K. our percentage of income spent on housing is considerably higher than it is in the rest of Europe. We pay less than food than European counterparts.

You’re wrong about the house building. We are building houses, but too many are being purchased by investors.

That’s the root cause of why we have families dependent on food banks and living off tomato sauce and pasta. I’ve spent a lot of time in Italy. Cleaners, chefs, everyday working folk are NOT reliant on food banks. They’re buying lovely fresh food in supermarkets/ markets. They can afford to do so because they are not paying over huge amounts of money for rent. It makes a huge difference to what you can afford to eat.

Do you have any data to support your assertions, because your previous ones on wages were wrong.

I don't think you understand economics if you think that food is cheap because property is expensive, that is now how market forces work. Food is cheap because it is a highly competitive market, if everyone's wages went up 20% food prices would not suddenly rise.

I am not wrong on housing, it is basic supply and demand. Yes there are investors buying up million pound apartments in central London, but that does not impact the overall housing market. We are building at a rate which means that the housing stock is increasing at a lower rate than population, that creates a shortage (supply and demand) which drives up prices. In areas where there is far less pressure on the housing stock prices are lower, in London and the South East where it is particularly intense then prices are higher.

In Italy almost everyone cooks from scratch, you will not find them buying a jar of pasta sauce, most Italians would regard it as almost inedible. Cooking from scratch is also far cheaper.

Most food bank usage in the UK is driven by the five week wait for UC to kick in, it is a (deliberate) design flaw in the system, which accounts for the majority of food bank usage.

queenofarles · 04/10/2021 13:46

In Italy almost everyone cooks from scratch, you will not find them buying a jar of pasta sauce, most Italians would regard it as almost inedible. Cooking from scratch is also far cheaper
Cooking from scratch is cheaper in the long run, after buying spices , pots and pans and gain some knowledge in cooking simple . delicious yet cheap meals, for anyone switching from ready meals to home made will spend a bit more at first. That’s why some find it more expensive.

Popoloco · 04/10/2021 14:43

@MatildaIThink Well they have big supermarket chains in Europe, so that doesn’t explain it. Off the top of my head, Carrefour in France, Aldi and Lidl in most European countries now (German origins).

Everyone knows the supermarkets set the price of farmed basics low to get consumers through the door (milk, eggs). Perhaps in Europe farms are better unionised / organised to demand higher prices so the supermarkets don’t have as much power? I don’t know what the reasons are - I haven’t looked into it.

BUT economists will tell you that consumer willingness to pay has an impact on quality/ utility/ prices set. I think UK consumers culturally have a higher tolerance for poor quality food, again don’t have evidence except we’ve always been known for our poor cuisine compared to mainland Europe. If you want quality, you have to pay more for it in the U.K.

Europeans that I know (french Spanish Italian German) have all pointed out (and find it weird) how our supermarkets aligns to our class system and the quality/ price varies accordingly. Apparently that’s not the case in their home countries (don’t know how true this is- just what they’ve said to me).

Popoloco · 04/10/2021 14:54

@queenofarles Yep agree with you there. I am so grateful for Jamie Oliver programmes as it never occurred to me when I was a young adult not to use a jar of sauce for cooking. Never really saw much cooking much from scratch in my childhood. It was all packets and jars. When you don’t know any different, you aren’t empowered to cook from scratch. It takes time, effort and money to learn.

Sadly many families in this country don’t know how to cook, parents have not passed on skills and knowledge to their children. If you think about it, here in the U.K. we eat cuisine from around the world. Whereas regional cuisine is king in much of Europe. They’ve held onto their roots and cookery skills get passed on through generations because it’s part of their cultural identity- whereas it isn’t really for many people in the U.K.

Wazzzzzzzup · 04/10/2021 15:02

British cousine is weird.
It sounds lovely, I mean just look at cottage pie, should be delicious. Recipe sounds perfect. But... Where is the flavour? So many Ive eaten could really use more pepper, thyme, maybe 1 small clove of garlic extra? Oooh and brown sauce (nice surprise). It's generallysomewhat bland if that's the right word.
That's a shame. I like british food. It's very comforting.

My eyes have been opened when I asked about lemons recently. I always thought that with taking over so many countries so long ago, many flavours were more embeded into cooking in UK.

orangeautumnleaves · 04/10/2021 15:10

@Wazzzzzzzup totally agree about cottage pie until I cooked a vegan one by deliciously Ella. Seriously delicious even for meat eaters!

app.deliciouslyella.com/recipe/FfFsvUTgZrNX7Btq6

TractorAndHeadphones · 04/10/2021 15:13

@Wazzzzzzzup

British cousine is weird. It sounds lovely, I mean just look at cottage pie, should be delicious. Recipe sounds perfect. But... Where is the flavour? So many Ive eaten could really use more pepper, thyme, maybe 1 small clove of garlic extra? Oooh and brown sauce (nice surprise). It's generallysomewhat bland if that's the right word. That's a shame. I like british food. It's very comforting.

My eyes have been opened when I asked about lemons recently. I always thought that with taking over so many countries so long ago, many flavours were more embeded into cooking in UK.

British food has been stereotyped as bad for decades for a reason… even at its best it’s still bland. There’s no layering of flavours. I asked most of my British friends about what ‘British’ food they eat and apart from fishy and chips/ Sunday roast nobody knew what else was British.

Nowadays though good cooking is not hard. Just google recipes. There’s zero excuse.

TractorAndHeadphones · 04/10/2021 15:14

Also @Wazzzzzzzup most of the British people I know cooo many kinds of food, Italian, Chinese, Indian.

Apart from chicken tikka masala there isn’t a lot of fusion food the way it is in places like Malaysia but the average Brit cooks a larger variety.

Not my DP though all he knows is sausages and roast chicken with no seasoning whatsoever except for salt …

TractorAndHeadphones · 04/10/2021 15:15

*brit I KNOW ofc can’t speak for a whole country hehehhee

queenofarles · 04/10/2021 15:16

European 🙋🏼‍♀️ here so :
Perhaps in Europe farms are better unionised / organised to demand higher prices so the supermarkets don’t have as much power? Yes and no , you have to remember that most big farms recieve funding from the EU , and they get paid by the hector, the more land you have the more money you get , some big farms do produce quality produce others just care about quantity,

Europeans that I know (french Spanish Italian German) have all pointed out (and find it weird) how our supermarkets aligns to our class system and the quality/ price varies accordingly. Apparently that’s not the case in their home countries That’s the case in Europe too, big cheap supermarket chains are in poorer areas,
as you get to the cities it’s either independents grocers, gourmet shops or places like Monoprix for example in Paris < the Tesco of France, rich and not so rich can shop there>

MintJulia · 04/10/2021 15:23

Certainly food n the U.K. is cheaper than in many other developed countries.
The amount we as a country waste - close to 50% - is excessive, and average waistlines are growing far beyond what is healthy.

So yes, I'd say we need to eat less and be more selective about what we eat. I like meat but have got red meat down to once a week. I only eat British meat because welfare tends to be higher, although still not great. I have got much better at cooking meals that are veggie or with a very small proportion of meat. It's easy to do, I wish I'd learnt as a teen because it would have made the student years a lot easier. But it is not what people want to hear.

queenofarles · 04/10/2021 15:49

Popoloco yes,I think largely because supermarket prepared food in Europe is really rubbish.
Here you can sometimes get decent prepared dishes , but there is nothing locally comparable like that in Europe I can think of Hmm, a quick lunch in cities is usually bought from bakeries. baguettes , quiches so everything is freshly made and not sandwiches that are a couple days old when they hit the shelves 🤢.

People rave about Lidl on MN , haven’t been to
any here but In Europe they are very depressing Confused.

Wazzzzzzzup · 04/10/2021 15:51

haven’t been to any here but In Europe they are very depressing
Blsphemy! My family LOVES them😂

(Joking. I am with you, not a fan overall, sometimes it's ok)

Nipitinthebudlight · 04/10/2021 15:52

Yes agree with a lot of what’s been said, that the reasons for cheaper food are structural and related to consumer demand V consumer ability to pay for quality (or not).

We are more like the US in our willingness to accept cheaper substitutes in our food such as palm oil. I’m trying to avoid vegetable oil for health reasons and it’s pretty easy if you stick to Italian brands, they’ll almost always use olive oil. Peanut butter is often full of palm oil. Most consumers in this country don’t care. Whereas I believe Italians are more discerning of what they eat/ feed their kids. And quality is more expensive.

MatildaIThink · 04/10/2021 15:52

[quote Popoloco]@MatildaIThink Well they have big supermarket chains in Europe, so that doesn’t explain it. Off the top of my head, Carrefour in France, Aldi and Lidl in most European countries now (German origins).

Everyone knows the supermarkets set the price of farmed basics low to get consumers through the door (milk, eggs). Perhaps in Europe farms are better unionised / organised to demand higher prices so the supermarkets don’t have as much power? I don’t know what the reasons are - I haven’t looked into it.

BUT economists will tell you that consumer willingness to pay has an impact on quality/ utility/ prices set. I think UK consumers culturally have a higher tolerance for poor quality food, again don’t have evidence except we’ve always been known for our poor cuisine compared to mainland Europe. If you want quality, you have to pay more for it in the U.K.

Europeans that I know (french Spanish Italian German) have all pointed out (and find it weird) how our supermarkets aligns to our class system and the quality/ price varies accordingly. Apparently that’s not the case in their home countries (don’t know how true this is- just what they’ve said to me).[/quote]
In terms of supermarket power it depends on the country. In France, Germany, Italy, Spain for example the market is dominated by supermarkets. In the UK a far higher percentage of food sales goes through large supermarket chains, where as in other European countries there are still smaller regional and local operators. In France the farmers are very powerful, although less so in other European countries.

The food in the UK is not inherently a lower standard to continental Europe, chickens are raised and produced to the same standards and you would be unlikely to be able to tell the difference, beef is the same standard and indeed British beef and especially Scottish beef is regarded as some of the best in Europe. Where food in the UK has a bad reputation is not the food itself, but the cuisine. Up until the last 15-20 years nearly all vegetables in the UK were overcooked and many people still do this. Much of the food served in the UK was overcooked meat, served with overcooked vegetables and some form of potato product and that was dinner many nights a week. Also the amount of processed food we eat is only beaten by the USA, the amount of ready meals, processed sauces etc. that we buy and consume compared to the continent is huge, there are over 40 different ingredients in many different pasta sauces which are sold in the UK, made from fresh you might have ten at most.

The reason our supermarkets align to class is largely because of buying habits, you don't sell a huge amount of Waitrose early harvest domat olives in some areas, you don't sell a lot of Turkey Twizzlers in others. In the UK food consumption has always been far more socially stratified than in other countries, with some food seen as lower class (usually ultra processed, ready meals etc. although there are some premium entries in the market) and other foods are seen as "posh". In most European countries the amount of meat consumption varied with class, but other foods were more balanced, every Italian eats pasta and almost all of them will know how to make pasta sauces from scratch etc. where as less than a third of adults in the UK know how to make a basic roux, or know what passata is.

MatildaIThink · 04/10/2021 15:57

@Wazzzzzzzup

British cousine is weird. It sounds lovely, I mean just look at cottage pie, should be delicious. Recipe sounds perfect. But... Where is the flavour? So many Ive eaten could really use more pepper, thyme, maybe 1 small clove of garlic extra? Oooh and brown sauce (nice surprise). It's generallysomewhat bland if that's the right word. That's a shame. I like british food. It's very comforting.

My eyes have been opened when I asked about lemons recently. I always thought that with taking over so many countries so long ago, many flavours were more embeded into cooking in UK.

I think this really depends on how you make the cottage pie, some people don't even brown off the meat first, chuck in some meat and onions, throw mashed potato on top and what you get is lacking in flavour. Made properly however, with proper seasoning, herbs, vegetables in with the meat, enough stock to really add flavour then it can be delicious. I do agree though that mashed potato on mince is an awful version of a cottage pie.

The lemons thing was amazing and insane, lemons are not middle class or posh.

Geamhradh · 04/10/2021 17:40

@Popoloco

I don’t agree

Housing costs are crippling for working age people in many parts of the U.K. our percentage of income spent on housing is considerably higher than it is in the rest of Europe. We pay less than food than European counterparts.

You’re wrong about the house building. We are building houses, but too many are being purchased by investors.

That’s the root cause of why we have families dependent on food banks and living off tomato sauce and pasta. I’ve spent a lot of time in Italy. Cleaners, chefs, everyday working folk are NOT reliant on food banks. They’re buying lovely fresh food in supermarkets/ markets. They can afford to do so because they are not paying over huge amounts of money for rent. It makes a huge difference to what you can afford to eat.

I'd like to know which bit of Italy this is as I pay more to rent a ground floor flat here I'm Puglia than my cousin's tenants pay for a 3 bedroom semi-detached house with double garage and massive garden in the Midlands. Fruit and veg (in season) are cheaper than the UK. But anything not in season is much much higher. Meat and fish, cheese etc much higher here than the UK and the meat is nowhere near such good quality.
Cornettoninja · 04/10/2021 17:40

To comment on ‘British cuisine’, I think done well it relies fairly heavily on butters and creams along with herbs. The ‘badness’ comes from a couple of generations heavily influenced by war and rationing in how they learnt to cook and put a dish together. Traditional British food is tasty done well but that’s an art that failed to survive a lot of rationing cooking I think.

English condiments (mustard, horseradish, various pickles) certainly don’t back up a history of bland tastes.