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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To question whether Comprehensive Schooling has achieved what was anticipated when Kidbrooke opened in 1954

132 replies

peewitsandy · 30/09/2021 20:46

Kidbrooke School in Greenwich was the first purpose built Comprehensive school in England in 1954. The dawn of a revolution in education was anticipated a 'Grammar School' for everybody was the notion espoused by politicians. This being the mantra of especially those on the left of the political spectrum.

Fast forward some seventy seven years later , where many posters on here will inevitably choose Grammar School nine times out of ten. This being factual even if local Comprehensive is Outstanding and the Grammar School requires a sixty minute journey there and back.

This, suggests parents make the grammar school choice, over a perfectly good Comprehensive option, because the mantra of a 'Grammar School for all' has not succeeded .

This is despite seventy + years of promotion of Comprehensive Education by Governments of both colour.

The original notion of Comprehensive education, was that over time both Private and Grammar Schools would become absolute .

OP posts:
leavesthataregreen · 30/09/2021 22:00

@helpmewithdrawgracefully

Absolutely no interest in the grammar schools 30 minutes away here. I am a psychologist and the students I work with at the grammar schools are the most miserable and psychologically damaged of all.
That's interesting - why?
Original poster
peewitsandy · 30/09/2021 22:01

If 1954 was 77 years ago it would make an 11 year old 88 today and not the true 78...

OP posts:
RedHelenB · 30/09/2021 22:01

Yabu. A lot of mnetters are educational snobs and the so called terrible comps that they couldn't possibly send their kids to are nothing of the sort.

Lockdownbear · 30/09/2021 22:03

@helpmewithdrawgracefully

Absolutely no interest in the grammar schools 30 minutes away here. I am a psychologist and the students I work with at the grammar schools are the most miserable and psychologically damaged of all.
Do you think it's the extra pressure? Coached for the entrance exam then can't cope beyond that?
Original poster
peewitsandy · 30/09/2021 22:06

Ghosty. I was a borderline 11+ pass, my mother was one of the Governors at my Grammar School . She taught at the boys one.

OP posts:
RampantIvy · 30/09/2021 22:07

I'm very thankful that there are no grammar schools in our county.

Userg1234 · 30/09/2021 22:20

No definitively not.
I went to a comp with at least 20 kids who would have passed the 11+. We were trained to be dockers or factory hands. Out of 242 kids in September 1980. One. I REPEAT one went to university at 18.
Many went later in life.
It's a shit system which lumps everyone in one pot.
I was too lazy for university but pissed o levels...a friend went to a selective school...I got As for English essays there!

noblegiraffe · 30/09/2021 22:26

@DerAlteMann

The destruction of State grammar schools by the Labour Govt. did more harm to social mobility of the working class than anything ever done by any Tory government ever.
Thatcher closed the most grammars.
Iggly · 30/09/2021 22:29

Well the OP would only apply if we had true choice and we don’t.

Grammar schools have been significantly reduced in number meaning it is not a choice for the majority.

Furthermore, I suspect pedagogy has moved on from the idea of grammar. The idea of testing a child at 11 and deciding their educational path at that time is just spurious. At best.

So YABU

Forgothowmuchlhatehomeschoolin · 30/09/2021 22:31

@helpmewithdrawgracefully

Absolutely no interest in the grammar schools 30 minutes away here. I am a psychologist and the students I work with at the grammar schools are the most miserable and psychologically damaged of all.

In a funny way l am glad you said this....keep being advised by people l should get my dd tutored to do the 11+ but l am not feeling it

FrazzledY9Parent · 30/09/2021 22:33

No grammars in my area. Most of the state secondaries are run by academy chains and are distinctly mediocre. As a result, middle class children do fine (although not as well as they would in a better school or going private) and children from deprived homes get a crap education, and underperform.

I don't think grammars are the answer at all - but we do need far better comprehensives. I know these exist in some bits of the country but it's far from universal.

MiddlesexGirl · 30/09/2021 22:34

@VampireBarbie

"many posters on here will inevitably choose Grammar School nine times out of ten"

Nonsense. Most of us don't even have a grammar school in commuting distance.

Plus, if you have grammar schools in your LA then the other secondaries can never be truly comprehensive.

Not true. In our area we have access to all types. The grammars are admittedly mostly a one hour commute. Guess what most parents choose?
Original poster
peewitsandy · 30/09/2021 23:01

Noble yes the opposite to Margaret Thatcher getting rid of more Grammar Schools is that Harold Wilson closed more Coal mines !

Its one of the oddities of politics like it was 'Trump's' party who abolished Slavery in the South and the WOKE Democrats created the 'Jim Crow Laws' of Racial Segregation in the American South that ran until 1965 !

Sometime Politics operates in the opposite way to how you think.

OP posts:
Alittlenonsensenowandthen · 30/09/2021 23:05

I went to a comp. We were in a grammar area but moved. Yes it was a great school but the downside was that the academic 'cream' went there which lowered the comp schools success which I felt was unfair. However, I honestly I think a tertiary system based on what your strengths are is a better system. I.e if you're academic, then despite your background you should go down that route. If you're more hands on then being encouraged in a role that suits that would be better. The problem is with comp system that it really only counts the academics as success stories whereas everyone should be valued for their unique set of strengths and skills. Idealistic maybe but better than valuing degrees to the exclusion of everything else and having over educated workers.

lanthanum · 30/09/2021 23:32

We're in an area with no grammars and good comprehensives. It helps that it's a relatively affluent area overall, so there are good numbers of high-achievers in most of the schools. It would be quite interesting to see the statistics for the proportion of children in private education in different areas. I'm sure there are some in our area who go private because there aren't state grammars, but there are probably fewer who go private because they're avoiding the state comprehensives.

There are a few of our comps which are weaker - usually with an less-advantaged catchment, then the usual vicious circle of people avoiding them, whether by living in better catchments, commuting to schools further away or going private.

VampireBarbie · 30/09/2021 23:47

There is no such thing as a comprehensive secondary modern, OP.

Maybe wait until your mum's book is out and you've read it before posting?

JudgeJ · 30/09/2021 23:56

@DerAlteMann

The destruction of State grammar schools by the Labour Govt. did more harm to social mobility of the working class than anything ever done by any Tory government ever.
Totally agree although many of today's teachers have been indoctrinated to believe that they were for the privileged, in my grammar school the vast majority were like me, from council houses with parents in fairly low paid jobs. The failure of the tripartite system was that the Secondary Modern schools tried to copy the grammar schools and the Technical schools never got off the ground. Rather than trying to make it work the politics of envy meant they destroyed the successful part.
Original poster
peewitsandy · 30/09/2021 23:56

You are quite right there is no such thing as a Comprehensive Secondary Modern! However, posters will be aware that all the schools that are not Grammar Schools in Selective areas call themselves Comprehensive.

There are also some 'Secondary Modern Schools' whose educational attainment puts them in the top 10% of all schools offering secondary education. I also know of two such schools which attain better average A level grades than some of the lowest performing Grammar Schools.

OP posts:
IvorHughJarrs · 01/10/2021 00:11

I went to state grammar school that changed to comprehensive after I started there. A lot of the staff left/retired and, according to local lore, the standards went down yet a large number of my year went to university (late 70s).

My DCs all went to private school. The local comprehensive is rated "good" but is huge and, despite some good academic results, at the open days their pupils seemed to lack the articulacy and confidence we saw at the local independent. My DCs have all gone on to university and to good jobs where many friends' children at the comprehensive have not fared as well sadly
I think where selective schools allow some pupils to succeed, comprehensive is a race to the bottom where even less do.

Original poster
peewitsandy · 01/10/2021 00:14

We should have Schools that offer the non academic pupils routes in to trades. This was supposed to be the point of the Technical Schools which never took off.

If you remember there was a Television show from Channel Four 'That Ill Teach Them' that ran for three series from 2003-2006. The most interesting season being the second one in which the school became a 1960s Boarding Secondary Modern school ( I can't imagine that every existed)

However, if the Secondary Modern schools had actually been like that in real life, I'm sure they would not of got the reputation they got. The ironic thing today Post Brexit , is if someone has vocational skills in Plumbing, Bricklaying e.tc they are going to be never out of work .

OP posts:
MintJulia · 01/10/2021 00:37

I went to a state grammar school in the 70s. We were the 'poor family' who all got in. We all have degrees and professional careers so we benefitted from the social mobility they were designed to offer.

The teachers were very good, the class sizes were the same as any other state school, but expectations were much, much higher and there was absolutely no disruptive behaviour. 64 out of 66 in my year went to university, even in the 70s. Of the others, one went to stage school and one to Naval college.

My ds goes to an independent, because the local comp is too big to be safe, and has poor maths provision, his favourite subject.

Namenic · 01/10/2021 00:38

More funding for trades education, plus option for part-work-part-study from 16 would be good.

Theythinkitsalloveritisnow · 01/10/2021 00:56

Grammar schools that have been deemed to be elitist have been replaced by catchment area by house price. Amazing how increased "equality" favours the well off middle classes who can't compete intellectually. Grammar schools did an amazing job increasing social mobility but it meant the not so bright middle class children didn't get an unfair boost, so that needed to change.

garlictwist · 01/10/2021 04:10

No grammar schools here. Everyone just goes to their local school. I find it weird that some places have retained them. It seems archaic.

RedHelenB · 01/10/2021 06:55

@MintJulia

I went to a state grammar school in the 70s. We were the 'poor family' who all got in. We all have degrees and professional careers so we benefitted from the social mobility they were designed to offer.

The teachers were very good, the class sizes were the same as any other state school, but expectations were much, much higher and there was absolutely no disruptive behaviour. 64 out of 66 in my year went to university, even in the 70s. Of the others, one went to stage school and one to Naval college.

My ds goes to an independent, because the local comp is too big to be safe, and has poor maths provision, his favourite subject.

What do you mean too big to be safe? Be honest, he's at independent school so you can be top just like you were. You do know children get top grades in maths at comps too if they're bright enough?