AIBU that the political left is hamstrung by it's obsession with purity of thought?

[Echobelly]

To be clear - I think intersectionality is vital, I think awareness of privilege and balances of power when talking about the needs of different people is massively important. These things have value.

But it also seems to me that one reason the Left is struggling against the populist Right is that this expectation that everyone who doesn't get everything about the things I mentioned above exactly 'right' the very first time they encounter them or every time they mention them in company is a total pariah, a 'bigot', is 'erasing' or 'silencing' another group with what they do or say etc. When they're trying to the right thing but have maybe got it wrong, they're basically treated link c*nts.

People are well intentioned, but not everyone has a degree in sociology or whatever and not everyone, especially if they haven't had a privileged education, has a nuanced understanding of every political and social issue. Often one encounters people who are quick to label anyone who they see as less left-wing than them as 'fascist' (I was called this for discussing exactly the issue I am raising here on a LW group, though TBF, the guy was a bit of a out-there weirdo and was called out by lots of other people for saying it!)

I imagine one doesn't often see people chucked out of right wing groups for being 'not right wing enough' or 'not intersectional'. These groups, while lacking in self-awareness usually, are at least welcoming to all parties that want to join on the whole and won't chuck them out for 'saying the wrong thing'. Basically, it's easy to be part of the Right. It's hard to be part of the Left.

And that in part is because there is more self-awareness and care about it on the Left and that is valuable, but God, can't people sometimes cut people a bit of a slack?! It just seems that the Left spends its time tearing itself apart to prove who is the most pure and virtuous, and while it does this RW is making all sorts of gains in the popular consciousness and screwing up the world.

Totally agree OP. The economist had a great briefing on this a few weeks ago "beware the rise of the illiberal left" - recommend the read!

@Echobelly absolutely agree. I just don't understand it.

It's very obvious who the left voting people I know are. I know one LD and one Green. The rest could be any party. I'm a floating voter and vote according to the current or local context. I'm not inherently anti-Labour but each time there's a general election, the Labour core end up getting snoozed for 30 days because of the vitriolic nature of their posts rather than actual political ideology.

Interestingly the Labour core don't tend to do voluntary/ community based activities. It's pure pontificating.

It's incredibly depressing that after over a decade out of power, and worsening defeats that Labour still won't see why they are unelectable and losing to the likes of Theresa May and Boris Johnson.

They need a realistic vision that invests in British society. The Blair years were not perfect but there were some productive policies such as the Children's Centres.

Only a brief post.

Thanks OP 100% articulates how I feel and haven't been able to conceptually articulate.

I consider the left at the moment to be almost anti inclusion as a result of the drive for absolute ideological purity

I've actually shared this with my local Labour counsellor - a nice, sensible lady.

Reminds me of Gordon Brown, 11 years ago apparently and he’s famous ‘bigoted woman’ debacle. They’ve been shouting themselves in the foot for a long, long time.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=yEReCN9gO14

*shooting

The simplest way to explain it is that the Labour Party no longer represents the working class, largely as a result of the shift in its membership from working class to middle class, and most middle class people simply cannot relate to the problems faced by working class people.

Completely agree - hate the way a lot of debates become about semantics - not everyone is articulate enough to use or informed to know what words mean what and what is offensive.
I hate the way that no benefit is given of the doubt. Peoples world view and what is wrong and right is shaped by the inputs around them and it is easy to be swayed by things like "I'm being included",made to feel secure or fed. We're not logical robots.
And I think this left wing attitude perpetuates the roblem. If someone's feeling attacked for a viewpoint, of course this is going to strengthen it when their "side" are welcoming towards them.
Even people like trump supporters - I'm uncomfortable with some of the fun being made towards them.
Or Shamima begum, she developed her views for a reason.

It is also important to note that the Tories have had two women leaders, and have a man from the BAME community in one of the most senior positions in government. I am a member of the labour party, in every election however small, they have positions specifically for women, specifically for lgbt community etc, yet they have for example never had a woman leader. Surely it is worth examining if the tactics they are using are actually achieving anything.

The Labour party comes over as not liking the WC very much. The Labour movement grew out of the WC wanting to be heard not lectured. Some of the more young MC urban Labour supporter give the impression that they think the WC need to be guided and educated rather than listened too.

I am centre right in my politics but I would like to see a stronger Labour party providing a robust opposition. Good politics needs the Government to be held to account. Some individual Labour MPs are superb - where we used to live the local MP was one of those hard working, pragmatic, committed backbench MPs who are too easily overlooked but are the true heart of politics. Whilst I didn't always agree with her politically I still respected her because she was a great constituency MP.

I agree @Echobelly

I think all the trans discussions are an absolute gift to the tories, who don't seem to speak about it as much.

@Langsdestiny

It is also important to note that the Tories have had two women leaders, and have a man from the BAME community in one of the most senior positions in government. I am a member of the labour party, in every election however small, they have positions specifically for women, specifically for lgbt community etc, yet they have for example never had a woman leader. Surely it is worth examining if the tactics they are using are actually achieving anything.

Blimey. So electing a woman who positively discriminates against other women is seen as a good thing?

I mean thatcher of course

Christ, I completely agree with almost all of this thread.

I’m desperate to see a decent left wing party who care about improving people’s actual, real lives in a pragmatic way (the unions can wang on all they like about a £15 minimum wage but it’s not going to happen AND is more likely to remind people of the wage inflation of the 70s, which did not end well) while also respecting/including people who broadly have the same views but differ in some fronts like, say, women’s rights.

But no, they’ve disappeared up their own wokery in an orgy of handwringing and language policing. Fuck knows when they’ll be a decent opposition again, let alone a serious contender at an election.

What with Brexit, Covid, shortages and God knows what else Labour should be wiping the floor with the Tories. But they can’t possibly even discuss doing that until everyone’s pronouns are respected and no-one is feeling oppressed

As for the various left-wing groups forming a coalition, I don’t even want to think about the purity vortex that would cause. It would be the People’s Front of Judea on steroids…

If a leader of a party says that men can have a cervix you have to wonder who really would vote for them. Why didn't he just say transmen. It's not a dirty secret. We all know, there is no need for anyone to feel shame about it. Why so puritanical about it? If he is onboard with cancel culture, he is just cancelling his own votes. Why can't he see this?

Social media really doesn't help any of this, I think it's bring on twitter that's kind of made me despair of the left's ability to pull itself together because there's always a problem with this person or that idea so nothing actually moves forward.

WallaceInAnderland it's because at least he's on the right side - as he sees it. Can't be seen to side with anyone other than the bros. He's a misogynist and so is his party.

@Echobelly

I think social media is very much to blame. Not only does it lend itself to the division into tribes but the lack of space to write (especially the limited characters on Twitter) means that a nuanced discussion is distilled down to Soundbite Top Trumps.

I'm left-leaning and was politically aware and interested from the 1987 election onwards when we had a mock election at school. So for ten years after that, all I knew was a Tory government, by which time I was a typical lefty student.

I had strong views about what I wanted to see from a Labour government, having never experienced one. I knew who Jeremy Corbyn was at the time and thought he had some interesting ideas. I drifted away once Blair got elected as he was very centrist and didn't appeal to me. Now, after 11 more years of Tories, I would bite your hand off for another Blair to bring Labour back to power.

A mate of mine told me I'd become more right-wing, just stopping short of patronising me with "it must be your age". Perhaps I have - but I just want a Labour government and to do that you have to either change the voting system (tried 10 years ago and failed) or appeal to middle-England floating voters. Anyone who refuses to deal with that current reality is engaged in political onanism and I have no time for them.

I think 'getting more right wing as you get older', as my mum told me I would, is no longer a thing- for the middle classes at least. It relied on the idea that you accrued your capital, imagined you kids would do at least as well as you and would want to protect that by voting for wealth retention, low taxes etc.

But our kids won't do better than us. Labour needs to be addressing and building on that fact. Not arguing about who has a cervix. Nb, don't know why people don't just say 'women and people with a cervix/pregnant people/people who menstruate' or whatever. A bit wordy but includes women and everyone else.

Thoroughly agree - it’s all completely patronising; normal working people do not care about ID politics. Starmer should’ve refused to indulge.
While this language-policing and general sanctimoniousness persists, none of the left-leaning parties will have my vote.

They'll probably still get my vote unless lib Dems stand a really good candidate next time (they're trying very hard to land our constituency) as literally anything is better than the current shitshow. The annoying thing is Labour probably would quite driving itself nuts about these things if they got into power, but they have to start acting like it!

@Echobelly

I think 'getting more right wing as you get older', as my mum told me I would, is no longer a thing- for the middle classes at least. It relied on the idea that you accrued your capital, imagined you kids would do at least as well as you and would want to protect that by voting for wealth retention, low taxes etc.

But our kids won't do better than us. Labour needs to be addressing and building on that fact. Not arguing about who has a cervix. Nb, don't know why people don't just say 'women and people with a cervix/pregnant people/people who menstruate' or whatever. A bit wordy but includes women and everyone else.

Well we know why they won’t say that. For the very reason you’ve stated in your OP. It’s not good enough. It doesn’t fit their very precise requirements. It’s not inclusive enough. It’s not diverse. The purity spiral isn’t spirally enough etc etc.

Having a political party refusing to allow its members to debate huge subjects that will make its way into law is fucking frightening to me. Isn't that the cornerstone of politics? The ability to hear all sides, thrash it out and then come up with a solution? Like that’s their one fucking job surely!

@applechips

The simplest way to explain it is that the Labour Party no longer represents the working class, largely as a result of the shift in its membership from working class to middle class, and most middle class people simply cannot relate to the problems faced by working class people.

What’s your definition of working class and middle class ?