AIBU to ask about nationality labels for statistical purposes

[Curerofsouls]

I can't assume the feelings and identities of other people. I work for my local authority and take referrals and enquiries as part of my job. One the questions we ask is about people's nationality or ethnicity and religion for statistical purposes. For the nationality and ethnicity section there are several options and we are asked to tick the one that represents the person.
I have told by my manager that ive not been ticking the boxes. Ive literally been asking the person about themselves and how they would describe themselves and it hardly ever fits into a box for example I hand wrote after one conversation " Afghani and white British as this was how the person described themselves. It got me thinking should we be asking these questions any more or just be completing the referral without any religious or ethnicity information as this information is held on file with the person's information just for a box ticking exercise? Or if we ignore all this information are we not acknowledging people's identity. The only time I use it is when there is an indication on the file that a person may need an interpreter.
My thoughts are that im going to continue to freehand the whole thing as you can't sandwich everyone into a box. What do you all think?

Just tick the box that best describes the person. If they fit two or more boxes, ask them which box they would prefer.

But you have to choose a box otherwise it messes up all the statistics tracking and measuring done to ensure discrimination isn’t happening.

It got me thinking should we be asking these questions any more or just be completing the referral without any religious or ethnicity information as this information is held on file with the person's information just for a box ticking exercise?

Are you sure about this? It should be being used to monitor equal access to services etc. Why is your manager picking you up on it, I wonder, if the data is never used?

General rule of thumb for dual/multi nationals like the Afghani + white British is that white British trumps Afghani while in U.K., but Afghani trumps white British while in Afghanistan. Because to statisticians, a British citizen is a British citizen, they don’t want British citizens counted as noncitizen Afghanis.

Tick two boxes?

@PlanDeRaccordement

General rule of thumb for dual/multi nationals like the Afghani + white British is that white British trumps Afghani while in U.K., but Afghani trumps white British while in Afghanistan. Because to statisticians, a British citizen is a British citizen, they don’t want British citizens counted as noncitizen Afghanis.

As the OP has specifically referred to "white British" rather than just British, I'm assuming that this is about ethnicity rather than nationality. As such, the usual practice would probably be to tick the Mixed (white/Asian) box or possibly some other Mixed option, depending on how things are set out.

It’s not “just statistics” it’s to help with ensuring that everyone is being supported by whatever awe have you’re providing. Used correctly, those statistics can be really helpful at ensuring wider accessibility.

Sure, sometimes it won’t be easy to know what to select - but if you’re failing to complete this often enough for your manager to notice it, then it sounds like you either have decided not to bother, or you need training.

@AlexaShutUp

I interpreted Afghani + White British to mean a white person with Afghani and British nationality. There are plenty of white people in Afghanistan. But you’re right, the person could be Mixed British or Asian British if the Afghani+ white British represents their parents and not themself.

@Cocomarine
No on the contrary ive 20 years experience. I just noticed that as we were asking people about their ethnicity people were increasingly saying that they were none of those options so I have been writing down how they describe themselves. Its not a matter of needing training its trying to listen to the way the people want to describe themselves and reflect that but then this not fitting into the options given. My own opinion is that we need a system change to be honest.

As this is AIBU, I’m just going to add that I think you’re completely unreasonable to say that your manager has approached you about your lack of completing form correctly but you’re just going to carry on anyway.

If you don’t think the form is useful - then feedback.
If you’re interested to learn more about how it used - ask.

You can still free hand write on your notes - but YABVU not to do your job properly.

[quote Curerofsouls]@Cocomarine
No on the contrary ive 20 years experience. I just noticed that as we were asking people about their ethnicity people were increasingly saying that they were none of those options so I have been writing down how they describe themselves. Its not a matter of needing training its trying to listen to the way the people want to describe themselves and reflect that but then this not fitting into the options given. My own opinion is that we need a system change to be honest.[/quote]
Right, so if you think the system should change, why is your AIBU not “AIBU to flag these issues?” not “AIBU to just ignore my manager and carry on my own sweet way”?

@AlexaShutUp and @PlanDeRaccordement

Ill just clarify the mum described herself as Afghani and dad was white (its children's services) they are both British.

@Cocomarine you sound pissed off not sure why. Im just trying to form an opinion.

[quote Curerofsouls]**@AlexaShutUp* and @PlanDeRaccordement*

Ill just clarify the mum described herself as Afghani and dad was white (its children's services) they are both British.[/quote]
So wouldn't the mum be British Asian and the dad be white British? And the children be mixed (white/Asian)? Or am I missing something?

Believe I am doing my job properly im just not sure why tou sound so annoyed

@AlexaShutUp
In this instance its the children's information that we capture. Sorry I should have said

So the children are mixed?

My dc is a mix of white and Asian heritage. We just tick the mixed (white/Asian box).

@AlexaShutUp

Yes born in Britain as were parents.

OK, so I don't really understand the difficulty. Sorry, I'm not trying to be awkward.

It sounds like they all have British nationality, so that's fairly straightforward. The children have mixed white/Asian ethnicity, which is also fairly straightforward. Are you saying that the form doesn't have options for mixed race people? That would be incredibly unusual!

Look, it's great that you are trying not to put people in boxes in general (and you sound very self-righteous about it so I suspect you know that you're in line with current progressive orthodoxy on this) but in this specific case you are actively undermining the ability of your organisation to analyse whether it's addressing the needs of the whole community appropriately. You are not doing these people a favour by not filling in the boxes and if you don't want to choose for them just give them the options and let them choose.

It might be helpful for you to ask your boss how the information is used. Just because you rarely use it doesn't make it useless or pointless. This is a constant frustration I have in my job, where people decide that things are irrelevant/pointless when actually they have a very real point, just not one they see in their job function. But the best solution to this is to try and explain the importance to people for who it isn't obvious, so ask your boss to do this for you.

I’m not cross! I’m just answering your AIBU. And I think that you’re unreasonable to ignore your manager and carry on writing free hand in notes. As you have 20 years experience, you should know that the data is important. There are other options here:

• escalate it if the boxes don’t cover enough options or force you into wrong choices (no “other”?) For example, if you’re asked to tick nationality and there is no option for dual nationality - raise it.

• training, if you’re unsure what to put, then ask for guidelines.

Nobody is asking you to assume someone’s feelings here. They’re asking you to take them through the options and ask them which fits best.

If you’re good at your job, when you find that the service user doesn’t feel covered by the options, you’ll escalate it.

@Hardbackwriter

Look, it's great that you are trying not to put people in boxes in general (and you sound very self-righteous about it so I suspect you know that you're in line with current progressive orthodoxy on this) but in this specific case you are actively undermining the ability of your organisation to analyse whether it's addressing the needs of the whole community appropriately. You are not doing these people a favour by not filling in the boxes and if you don't want to choose for them just give them the options and let them choose.

Well said.

Isn’t there an option for ‘would rather not say’? I always use that one. My religion or lack of is nobody’s business.

I greet with @AlexaShutUp

They’re all British nationality, one parent is Asian, the other white and the DC are mixed white/Asian. It sounds very straightforward and there are usually boxes to cover this.

YABU to ignore the boxes and write free hand. Especially cryptic notes that could be read in different ways.