AIBU to ask about nationality labels for statistical purposes

[Curerofsouls]

I can't assume the feelings and identities of other people. I work for my local authority and take referrals and enquiries as part of my job. One the questions we ask is about people's nationality or ethnicity and religion for statistical purposes. For the nationality and ethnicity section there are several options and we are asked to tick the one that represents the person.
I have told by my manager that ive not been ticking the boxes. Ive literally been asking the person about themselves and how they would describe themselves and it hardly ever fits into a box for example I hand wrote after one conversation " Afghani and white British as this was how the person described themselves. It got me thinking should we be asking these questions any more or just be completing the referral without any religious or ethnicity information as this information is held on file with the person's information just for a box ticking exercise? Or if we ignore all this information are we not acknowledging people's identity. The only time I use it is when there is an indication on the file that a person may need an interpreter.
My thoughts are that im going to continue to freehand the whole thing as you can't sandwich everyone into a box. What do you all think?

@Schulte

Isn’t there an option for ‘would rather not say’? I always use that one. My religion or lack of is nobody’s business.

But they were happy to tell OP their background and identity, she just refused to enter them onto the form.

I do always wonder why I’m asked this information though. I’ve just signed my DD up for a sports trial and the form asked for my ethnic background (not even hers). Why do they need to know? I think OP is right to question it!

@Schulte

I do always wonder why I’m asked this information though. I’ve just signed my DD up for a sports trial and the form asked for my ethnic background (not even hers). Why do they need to know? I think OP is right to question it!

It's nothing sinister. It's about monitoring and ensuring equal access to services and opportunities for people with all ethnicities.

@Schulte

I do always wonder why I’m asked this information though. I’ve just signed my DD up for a sports trial and the form asked for my ethnic background (not even hers). Why do they need to know? I think OP is right to question it!

Because if your area is 75% white but the sports club is 98% white that suggests they could do more to reach out across the community as a whole.

I think it depends on what you are trying to collect. Nationality isn't a feeling and is different from ethnicity which people should be able to self identify for. Religion is also separate and most coded questions should cover this for almost anyone you would meet.

For ethnicity, it sounds like you are coding for an entire family rather than an individual? If that's the case then I can see why you are struggling, either you are using the question incorrectly or it needs to be changed as people within the same family may have a different nationality, ethnicity and religion (mine certainly does).

Nah, sorry - I don’t believe that a sports club goes back through their statistics to try and become more inclusive.

I just saw how you're collecting the information- you should be reading these questions out verbatim so data is collected at purely as possible. Just asking someone to tell you about themselves and you trying to decide which code to use is not how these questions should be used.

@Schulte

I agree most sports clubs would not use nationality/ethnicity data. But you can’t really compare a private sports club to a government body like a local authority. The government is required by law to track these statistics to ensure equal access and treatment. So, no the OP is not right to question the data collection or to sabotage it.

@Schulte

Nah, sorry - I don’t believe that a sports club goes back through their statistics to try and become more inclusive.

Depending on the sport they may be passing them onto a governing body that does.

It doesn’t matter if you think there needs to be a system change. You work with the system you have, so you tick the box(es) that best describes the person.

I get what you mean. DH would be considered mixed race in the US. He has a parent from a south american country and so would be considered 'Hispanic or Latino' in the US, Americans always read him as 'different' and ask about his heritage. But in this country, with a British parent, name, passport and middle class accent he passes as white. Officially he should tick the 'mixed, other' box but that doesn't really reflect his experiences.

@Schulte

I do always wonder why I’m asked this information though. I’ve just signed my DD up for a sports trial and the form asked for my ethnic background (not even hers). Why do they need to know? I think OP is right to question it!

I don’t disagree that things should always be questioned! But OP has 20 years experience in local authority, so she will know this by now.

For your sports trial, as a very basic example, the organisers may see that despite the location being one of mixed nationalities and ethnicities, they only ever get White British participants. That might lead them to ask another local sports organisation if it was the same for them. Who may say, “yes, it was the same for us - we went to our local community leaders and asked their opinion.”
They said:

• netball is seen as a white girl sport
• you can’t play netball in a hijab

So we changed our advertising poster to one with a photo of young girls from multiple backgrounds, and had a local supplier make us up a hijab in the same netball dress team colour, and arranged for our coach to do a trial session in a school that we knew was predominantly British Asian pupils. Now we get much wider participation.

Collecting data doesn’t do anything thing on its own, but acting on what you collect does. And if you don’t collect it, you don’t act on it.

@Schulte

Nah, sorry - I don’t believe that a sports club goes back through their statistics to try and become more inclusive.

My swimming club does. My FIL’s hickey club does.

It's an interesting question. I work with health and social data, and these categories are really important in order to monitor access to services, health outcomes for different groups, etc.

But as you say it can be difficult for people with mixed backgrounds to decide which one to tick. Many surveys have a mixed ethnicity category, which gives you options (such as white and black Caribbean) but also has a text box for any other mixed ethnicity. Can you add the mixed ethnicity options to the form?

Some ethnicities are not covered at all in most UK surveys, such as Latin American / Hispanic. There is a campaign to have it included in the Census and ONS surveys. At the moment it falls into "other".

So my suggestion would be to have mixed ethnicity categories, the text box for anyone who wishes to use it, and then re-code to the text entries to various mixed categories as appropriate.

It just sounds like the kids are mixed white/Asian.

I don’t see how having one Afghani parent is more difficult to code than having one Bangladeshi parent.

I'm surprised these classifications of ethnicities are still used, they're so clunky to say the least.

20 years ago I was surveying and interviewing British Moroccan and Algerian respondents for a study and I remember every one of them marked themselves down as white British. In some of the interviews they expressed frustration at the categories and it was inconceivable to the respondents that they tick any of the 'black' options.

These classifications are not fit for purpose.

Can you print a copy of the categories, numbering them, laminate it and show it to people you’re talking to, asking them to self select? Might make it easier for you when actually doing it and reduce conflict with your manager.

I agree that the categories aren’t always a good fit, but also that the data is valuable. You hand writing it in isn’t helpful - in some orgs that would just be left blank when dealing with the data.

Meaningless- most people don’t understand the difference between nationality and ethnicity.

@ItsRainingTacos

I'm surprised these classifications of ethnicities are still used, they're so clunky to say the least.

20 years ago I was surveying and interviewing British Moroccan and Algerian respondents for a study and I remember every one of them marked themselves down as white British. In some of the interviews they expressed frustration at the categories and it was inconceivable to the respondents that they tick any of the 'black' options.

These classifications are not fit for purpose.

Your experience of 20 year old classifications not being fit for purpose may not still be the case.

I was asking people when they make a referral onto the service so im not just as some people say "going my own sweet way" or trying to cause an issue as such. So many people say that they are none of those and want this reflecting quite understandably. I am responding to that really.

I think it is feeding back if the categories are not appropriate.

I work on a helpline and usually say can we record your ethnicity? If they answer yes then “what is your ethnicity?”. If answer not clear “for example you might be white or Asian of mixed or African”.

For a previous poster our finders look at how we are addressing people in the area and also nationally.

I would never guess ethnicity or nationality. My name (first and surname) sounds Portuguese but only because the Portuguese colonised the place my parents are from. I look Asian and am British.

@Schulte

Nah, sorry - I don’t believe that a sports club goes back through their statistics to try and become more inclusive.

They will if they're applying for grants

If a lot of people are telling you none of the boxes matches their identity, is there a 'none of the above' box you can check?

If not, then you need to flag this, and your manager and whoever keeps track of the stats need to devise a questionnaire with 'none of the above' included, and a space for you to record in a specific way the clients' response to a question on identity.

Then after analysis another set of boxes can be produced to reflect the range of alternatives you have come across

It's not ok to just keep on doing this ad hoc. A better set of boxes is needed and the issue needs to be addressed if the clients are to be properly represented in the stats.

Ethnicity is a special category under the GDPR 'rules' and you must have the explicit consent of the person to record / process it in your records, you must make them aware of this.
Gone are the days of collecting all of this data for the sake of your statistics, you must have a legal reason to do this.
Too many organisations don't actually realise by collecting this information they are now acting illegally.
Good for you OP on questioning the situation.

Honestly Im not trying to sabotage anything and its certainly not ad hoc if someone tells me their category and it fits into a box it gets ticked but if they say "none of those" then I would write what they tell me on the form. I certainly don't feel self righteous. I just dont believe people should be pushed into the "other" box if that is not what they want, its just not good.